Hypothetical LEO Question

[ted_kennedys_liver]

Based on the definition of criminal mischief - you can legally shoot someone at night for some pretty petty things far less worse than theft.

[jmoney]

There have been some issues in my neighborhood lately. Vehicle burglaries, some other activity. Sounds like teenagers, not that age really matters. If caught in the act breaking into my vehicle, garage, workshop etc. can I detain them until sheriff deputy arrives? Obviously, if we are in danger, they have a gun the situation changes. I'm talking about in no way in fear of our safety, just don't want to let them run down the driveway to the next house or to come back next week. What are my legal options and which one of those is best?

Actually you're not. You have to also reasonably fear for your life. Them running away from you doesn't constitute that.

(1) you better be absolutely sure that a crime is actually occurring, and that it is occurring on ON your property

(2) force as reasonably necessary is a tricky thing, and most people read the cited statute wrong.

(3) Ask yourself, do I really want a deadly conduct charge, or should I just call 911?

You can wave that statute around all you want, but the fact of the matter is you better be able to articulately state your reasons to support this part of the statute:

he reasonably believes that:
(A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; or
(B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.


Hypos for you:

(1) you see someone in your driveway, you reasonably believe they are/or in the process of burglarizing your vehicle you barge outside with a gun and flashlight, point it at them, and hold them until the police come.

Problem: the guy was just looking for their cat under your car and there is nothing to support he was burglarizing your vehicle

result: CHARGE, class A misdemeanor deadly conduct.

(2) you see someone in the same car slowly drive by your house several times in the night, it is arousing your suspicions as there has been numerous burglaries in the area. After a while, you are convinced that your house, or your neighbors' house is about to be burglarized by these people. You see three people walking down the property line with flashlights pointed towards your neighbors house. You run outside and hold them at gunpoint, you caught em.

The people you just detained were the neighbors out of town relatives just walking up to the house, they couldn't tell which house was which.

result: CHARGE, class A misdemeanor deadly conduct.

just food for thought.

[stan]

Just because the law allows you to use deadly force doesn't mean you should. The next to the last thing in the world you want to do is take the life of another person. For me, no property is worth it.

[tvc184]

Hypos for you:

(1) you see someone in your driveway, you reasonably believe they are/or in the process of burglarizing your vehicle you barge outside with a gun and flashlight, point it at them, and hold them until the police come.

Problem: the guy was just looking for their cat under your car and there is nothing to support he was burglarizing your vehicle

result: CHARGE, class A misdemeanor deadly conduct.

(2) you see someone in the same car slowly drive by your house several times in the night, it is arousing your suspicions as there has been numerous burglaries in the area. After a while, you are convinced that your house, or your neighbors' house is about to be burglarized by these people. You see three people walking down the property line with flashlights pointed towards your neighbors house. You run outside and hold them at gunpoint, you caught em.

The people you just detained were the neighbors out of town relatives just walking up to the house, they couldn't tell which house was which.

result: CHARGE, class A misdemeanor deadly conduct.

just food for thought.

More likely 3rd degree felony Kidnapping or Aggravated Assault.


Chapter 20 Penal Code

(2) "Abduct" means to restrain a person with intent to prevent his liberation by:
(A) secreting or holding him in a place where he is not likely to be found; or
(B) using or threatening to use deadly force.

Sec. 20.03. KIDNAPPING. (a) A person commits an offense if he intentionally or knowingly abducts another person.

Pointing a gun with no threat is Deadly Conduct. Toss in a threat or detention and it jumps up to a felony.

[jmoney]

More likely 3rd degree felony Kidnapping or Aggravated Assault.


Chapter 20 Penal Code

(2) "Abduct" means to restrain a person with intent to prevent his liberation by:
(A) secreting or holding him in a place where he is not likely to be found; or
(B) using or threatening to use deadly force.

Sec. 20.03. KIDNAPPING. (a) A person commits an offense if he intentionally or knowingly abducts another person.

Pointing a gun with no threat is Deadly Conduct. Toss in a threat or detention and it jumps up to a felony.

While I agree that is certainly an option, those two hypos may have been based on actual adjudicated cases.

In both cases the defendant truly believed they were doing the right thing, it is hard to up that to a felony in the practical world without some more facts that kind of "up" the intensity/severity for lack of a better word.

[bone]

A lot of these responses in my opinion are part of the reason these low life's are not scared to do as they please and take what they want. People are to scared to stand up and fight back. Show up in my driveway in the middle of the night to steal my belongings and see what happens. No my belongings are not worth someone dying over but I am not the one that made that decision, the piece of trash stealing my things made it when he came on my property!

[tvc184]

While I agree that is certainly an option, those two hypos may have been based on actual adjudicated cases.

In both cases the defendant truly believed they were doing the right thing, it is hard to up that to a felony in the practical world without some more facts that kind of "up" the intensity/severity for lack of a better word.

"Adjudicated" means what the DA pleaded it down to if they wanted to clear their docket.

[jmoney]

"Adjudicated" means what the DA pleaded it down to if they wanted to clear their docket.

or because the officers didn't arrest the defendant at the time because they didn't believe a crime occurred...and had to submit a case at a later time with the defendant "at-large"

sometimes cases just make more sense at a misdemeanor level. Just because you can charge something as a felony doesn't mean you should.

[Bobby Ferguson]

A lot of these responses in my opinion are part of the reason these low life's are not scared to do as they please and take what they want. People are to scared to stand up and fight back. Show up in my driveway in the middle of the night to steal my belongings and see what happens. No my belongings are not worth someone dying over but I am not the one that made that decision, the piece of trash stealing my things made it when he came on my property!

This

[tvc184]

or because the officers didn't arrest the defendant at the time because they didn't believe a crime occurred...and had to submit a case at a later time with the defendant "at-large"

sometimes cases just make more sense at a misdemeanor level. Just because you can charge something as a felony doesn't mean you should.

No it doesn't but it means that in this case, you can make that arrest and it would be a valid criminal charge.

I wouldn't want to be a home owner and risk it in hopes of the DA using the tactic or discretion of another DA that used the "in the interest of justice" reasoning.

[TexasBob]

Thanks for the responses and the interesting discussions. In all honesty, I wont detain them and have no desire to do so. I wondered where the law stood on the matter, and have my answer. I'm 99.99% sure that when a half dressed guy holding a .45 starts yelling expletives at them for being where they shouldn't be at 2 in the morning they will run and that is fine. If they have a weapon or try to engage me, situation will have to adapt accordingly. I have zero desire to fight them or even raise the weapon, but I will not sit in the house and let them damage or steal from my hard earned home, shop, or vehicles as some suggest. If it is a neighbor looking for a cat, tone of voice and their response will tell that pretty quick.

[dustoffer]

As I see it, nothing I own is worth the thug's life as Limbwalker stated. Bottom line: do you have the $$ for an attorney and are you willing to bet all you own on a "jury of your peers"? You may be within the law fully, but there are a bunch of squirrels out there in the potential jury pool and convictions/appeals aren't cheap with lawyers charging $300+ per hour.