Spikes.

[nursejenn]

You need to kill doe to limit the stress on the environment. Also getting the proper buck: doe ratio. Id rather kill a young doe than an older doe. The older ones usually have twins more chance for bucks to come and grow. Young doe have usually one fawn...

But how to decide which ones? Let me give you the numbers.... Between the 3 of us that hunt our end of the lease, we've seen a total of maybe 6 does total. We have seen over 20 different bucks including several spikes.... Most of those bucks are young 2.5-3.5 year olds, some legal with AR (maybe 30%) and some not (the other 70%). I've only seen 2 that I would even consider killing... That big one I have on my camera (I can post a pic if ya haven't seen him already) and there's a nice 10 that hangs around where my hubby hunts.... That's gonna be great in a few years and were in this place for the long haul... Are there probably more that we don't/haven't seen? Absolutely for both bucks and does... Only time will tell what the ratio is in the long run. We just got on this place in August... All I know at this point is I've seen a TON of spikes running around and not as many does as I'd like... I can't bring myself to shoot a doe with those numbers though! Without enough does around, it's hard to hunt bucks if they are going elsewhere to find ladies...

[nursejenn]

Actually, under the scenario NurseJenn described this is wrong. Killing spikes is the correct answer in her scenario. She described an abundance of spikes and good but younger bucks and a shortage of does. This is the ideal kill-the-spikes scenario. You leave the good bucks, don't take any does, and kill spikes. This allows the good, young bucks to keep growing while culling those bucks that are behind in development and bringing the sex ratio in line.



LWD

Thank you.... I agree....

[panhandlehunter]

Let me rephrase....

Most here that say never kill a spike are saying that no one knows what they may grow into. My brain is highly analytical and I HAVE to look at the entire spectrum... How is is ever possible to kill a doe, mature or otherwise, since you never know what genetics they may be carrying and potentially pass on? If a doe has a daddy that was a 170" stud, she could be passing those genes on. So applying the same "spike" logic to does, one would never want to kill a doe either....

Now, as far as our current lease, we have a ton of spikes and fewer does plus a ton of different young up and coming bucks... I mean a TON. So I won't kill a doe this year. I did, however, kill a spike. I based this decision partially on the logic above plus the fact that I feel, based on what I've seen on our place, that our doe population is too low and our buck population too high.

My question pertains to does, not spikes....

If you have a ton of young deer, then there has to be a bunch of does. After all, that's where deer come from. Maybe the mature deer are just on a different food source, and the youngsters are on the corn. I don't like shooting young deer, so I don't. If you want to kill spikes for meat is fine, but the more bucks you have, the better chance of one of them being a monster. Does are does. You have to kill them and you'll never know what kind of genetics they have. Some people like to kill the young does. Mature does make more twins and are better mothers, which means healthier fawns. Without a deer count, you won't know what you have. Ride the ranch at night with a spotlight, and see what kind of numbers you see. 3 cameras on 3 feeders won't tell the story.

[Black Ice]

Actually, under the scenario NurseJenn described this is wrong. Killing spikes is the correct answer in her scenario. She described an abundance of spikes and good but younger bucks and a shortage of does. This is the ideal kill-the-spikes scenario. You leave the good bucks, don't take any does, and kill spikes. This allows the good, young bucks to keep growing while culling those bucks that are behind in development and bringing the sex ratio in line.



LWD

I agree with this. I'm in the opposite situation with to many doe so I don't shoot spikes cause I need all the bucks I can get, along with killing does.

[txtimetravler]

Spikes.

Well I have a serious question then...

First me say we don't kill a bunch of spikes... for a first deer for a hunter or just needing a deer for meat, yes we will on occasion however my question is this...

Yes a spike may or may not grow into a nice buck BUT a doe never grows antlers so how do you know that doe you are killing to let the spike walk doesn't have a daddy who was a 170" stud? If she has those genes, there a chance she could pass it on so by the same logic being used to say never kill a spike, wouldn't you want to see what kind of offspring she produces before eliminating those potentially awesome genes from the pool?

When I have a surplus of does, I target old does. Of course with a surplus, ill shoot any doe that stands still.
My basic guiding Prinicpal is to shoot old mature animals. Sure there are exceptions based on the situation but generally speaking I shoot old does.
I shot a doe this past weekend. I will post a pic of later.

[lovemylegacy]

Do not subscribe to the "spikes are culls" theory. Most young bucks are spikes whether they are 6mths old or 18 months old. Is a 18mth old 6pt a better deer than a spike of the same age....not really, time has yet to determine that. They both need to grow and mature before that can be determined. Lots of folks say that once a spike always a spike, I for one cannot tell the future so I do not believe that, case in point. I let a spike go that was on our lease(he had a mark on his body that I could ID him), he was killed by a member of our lease 4 yrs later which made him 5+, he scored 152 gross with a 13 4/8 spread. Just sayin'.

[El Coyote]

Actually, under the scenario NurseJenn described this is wrong. Killing spikes is the correct answer in her scenario. She described an abundance of spikes and good but younger bucks and a shortage of does. This is the ideal kill-the-spikes scenario. You leave the good bucks, don't take any does, and kill spikes. This allows the good, young bucks to keep growing while culling those bucks that are behind in development and bringing the sex ratio in line.



LWD

I take it as she is asking about killing doe not spikes...

[nursejenn]

I take it as she is asking about killing doe not spikes...

Yes... I was somewhat playing devils advocate on the other end of the spectrum, hence the does question.... And being the way I am, I need to hear the logic for deciding what does to shoot...

However, he validated my logic for my particular situation which shows that not everyone who shoots a spike should be "chastised" for shooting a young deer before it reaches its potential... I have plenty of medium sized bucks to grow up for the next few years... I NEED to keep the does around to continue breeding for more than a couple more years.... Maybe the spike I killed would have been a 150" 10 pt in 3 more years but maybe the doe I'd have shot instead would have produced 4 of those same thing in the next few years. It's a risk either way but the buck:doe ratio needs to get under control...

[nursejenn]

And I think THIS is how ya have a logical, respectful, debate/conversation on a somewhat controversial topic... So thanks y'all... Before others turn it the wrong way... If that happens, I'm out....


Just shows there's no one single rule that fits every situation...

[Grumpy1911]

I understand your logic in this situation!

[Fishndude]

Just shows there's no one single rule that fits every situation...

Ohhhhh but I beg to differ...

Rules that fit every situation!

1. Mind your own business as it pertains to what others shoot!

[txtimetravler]

When I have a surplus of does, I target old does. Of course with a surplus, ill shoot any doe that stands still.
My basic guiding Prinicpal is to shoot old mature animals. Sure there are exceptions based on the situation but generally speaking I shoot old does.
I shot a doe this past weekend. I will post a pic of later.

Here's that doe.

[nursejenn]

Ohhhhh but I beg to differ...



Rules that fit every situation!



1. Mind your own business as it pertains to what others shoot!

Touché... You are correct in that regard...

But this conversation wasn't about what someone else shoots... Since someone wanted to start an argument (as stated in post #1), I was steering away from argument toward an actual logic infused discussion. I had some questions that I wanted someone to explain their logic to me as they apply to MY situation (too many young bucks, not enough does)... So maybe I was stirring the pot a little in an effort to make people THiNK outside the box for a few moments...

The whole "shouldn't shoot spikes" thing doesn't apply in every situation...

[TalonErickson7]

Ohhhhh but I beg to differ...

Rules that fit every situation!

1. Mind your own business as it pertains to what others shoot!

I knew this was going to be said.

[TalonErickson7]

http://www.realtree.com/deer-hunting/galleries/photo-gallery-from-buttons-to-booner

Not sure if it has been posted but I like this.