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    #46
    I don't know that executing someone is something that makes me "proud" to be a Texan because we also managed to spawn that person. In fact, it seems that we have spawned more people worthy of execution than any other state, including more populous states<--not something I'm particularly proud of. I'm proud to be a Texan but not because of the death penalty.

    I whole-heartedly support the death penalty on moral grounds but I can't make a great case for it on any other grounds. It's incredibly cost INEFFICIENT! It costs the taxpayer WAY more to execute a person than to lock them up for the rest of their lives in a small box. The appeals process which is ABSOLUTELY necessary because it limits the number of mistakes that are made - more on that later. Secondly, there's ZERO evidence that it's had ANY 'deterrent' value. We continue to regularly see people committing crimes that result in the death penalty. In spite of the fact that we execute more people than any state, the rate of these crimes has not dropped in any causal way that people have been able to link to the death penalty. I WISH it would deter people - it sure ought to, but it doesn't seem to.

    Then, we get to the "mistake" factor. The appeals process is absolutely necessary because the court/legal system is inherently flawed and, when you have such a 'final' result we durn sure better be positive the person is actually guilty! Here in lies my BIGGEST problem with the death penalty. I'm 100% behind executing someone that has committed a heinous murder but there has just been WAY too many mistakes made. Here's a couple Texas stats:

    9 inmates were executed that were proven innocent AFTER execution
    13 inmates sentenced to death and proven innocent prior to execution, during appeal process.

    There have been about 475 (give or take a few) executions since 1976 and, with 22 failures (not lessening of the sentence but outright 'oopsies!') of the system, that means the failure rate is 4.64%!! The thought of making a "mistake" is one that haunts me. Can you imagine being executed for something you didn't do? Can you imagine a family member being executed 'on accident?' That's about the worst thing society could do; and it happens with pretty high regularity.

    Until there's a way to prove 100% that someone is truly guilty, and clearly there isn't such a method currently, I have VERY mixed feelings about the death penalty. The retribution that the death penalty provides to society and the victim's family is NOT worth the life of an innocent, IMO. Especially considering the outrageous financial cost and lack of deterrent value that's coupled with the unacceptable failure rate.

    I almost think that life in prison, in solitary confinement with NO privileges, would be a harsher sentence than death. And, at least we wouldn't have to worry about killing an innocent person by accident. Plus, we'd save a lot of taxpayer money.

    Like I said: I don't have a problem (morally, ethically) with putting a guilty person to death. It's just that we aren't good enough at PROVING guilt to justify the death penalty. I have a BIG problem with executing (or almost executing) innocent people; and it's happening with FAR to much regularity for me to be comfortable with it the way it currently is. Maybe in cases where the entire episode is caught on video and there's ABSOLUTELY ZERO chance that the criminal could be innocent; but standard cases, where there's eyewitness testimony or only physical evidence or circumstantial evidence (all of which CAN be manipulated), and even the tiniest shred of possibility of making a mistake, I have a very hard time getting comfortable with a death sentence. Somehow, I think Jesus would not approve of executing a person without 100% absolute proof of guilt; and that's almost impossible to come by these days. The justice system just gets it wrong TOO often for me to be comfortable with it on an intellectual level, despite my moral support for the idea of it. Justice is NOT done when the price is the death of innocent people. JMO

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      #47
      Originally posted by Horitexan View Post
      I don't know that executing someone is something that makes me "proud" to be a Texan because we also managed to spawn that person. In fact, it seems that we have spawned more people worthy of execution than any other state, including more populous states<--not something I'm particularly proud of. I'm proud to be a Texan but not because of the death penalty.

      I whole-heartedly support the death penalty on moral grounds but I can't make a great case for it on any other grounds. It's incredibly cost INEFFICIENT! It costs the taxpayer WAY more to execute a person than to lock them up for the rest of their lives in a small box. The appeals process which is ABSOLUTELY necessary because it limits the number of mistakes that are made - more on that later. Secondly, there's ZERO evidence that it's had ANY 'deterrent' value. We continue to regularly see people committing crimes that result in the death penalty. In spite of the fact that we execute more people than any state, the rate of these crimes has not dropped in any causal way that people have been able to link to the death penalty. I WISH it would deter people - it sure ought to, but it doesn't seem to.

      Then, we get to the "mistake" factor. The appeals process is absolutely necessary because the court/legal system is inherently flawed and, when you have such a 'final' result we durn sure better be positive the person is actually guilty! Here in lies my BIGGEST problem with the death penalty. I'm 100% behind executing someone that has committed a heinous murder but there has just been WAY too many mistakes made. Here's a couple Texas stats:

      9 inmates were executed that were proven innocent AFTER execution
      13 inmates sentenced to death and proven innocent prior to execution, during appeal process.

      There have been about 475 (give or take a few) executions since 1976 and, with 22 failures (not lessening of the sentence but outright 'oopsies!') of the system, that means the failure rate is 4.64%!! The thought of making a "mistake" is one that haunts me. Can you imagine being executed for something you didn't do? Can you imagine a family member being executed 'on accident?' That's about the worst thing society could do; and it happens with pretty high regularity.

      Until there's a way to prove 100% that someone is truly guilty, and clearly there isn't such a method currently, I have VERY mixed feelings about the death penalty. The retribution that the death penalty provides to society and the victim's family is NOT worth the life of an innocent, IMO. Especially considering the outrageous financial cost and lack of deterrent value that's coupled with the unacceptable failure rate.

      I almost think that life in prison, in solitary confinement with NO privileges, would be a harsher sentence than death. And, at least we wouldn't have to worry about killing an innocent person by accident. Plus, we'd save a lot of taxpayer money.

      Like I said: I don't have a problem (morally, ethically) with putting a guilty person to death. It's just that we aren't good enough at PROVING guilt to justify the death penalty. I have a BIG problem with executing (or almost executing) innocent people; and it's happening with FAR to much regularity for me to be comfortable with it the way it currently is. Maybe in cases where the entire episode is caught on video and there's ABSOLUTELY ZERO chance that the criminal could be innocent; but standard cases, where there's eyewitness testimony or only physical evidence or circumstantial evidence (all of which CAN be manipulated), and even the tiniest shred of possibility of making a mistake, I have a very hard time getting comfortable with a death sentence. Somehow, I think Jesus would not approve of executing a person without 100% absolute proof of guilt; and that's almost impossible to come by these days. The justice system just gets it wrong TOO often for me to be comfortable with it on an intellectual level, despite my moral support for the idea of it. Justice is NOT done when the price is the death of innocent people. JMO
      Well stated. As a general rule, I support the death penalty. I can also see the problem with executing innocent people, that is completely unacceptable. Those who say we should execute someone immediately or the next day, all I can say is your not living in reality and that is a very reckless attitute to have. If you want your eyes opened, watch a few documentaries on the Innocence Project. Many, many people who were serving life sentences or living on death row have been exonerated. Without the assistance from these people, many innocent people would have lost their lives. For those who think our justice system is always fair and we get everything right, you definately haven't been exposed to it. I'm a cop and I generally believe that our justice system as a whole is pretty good, I've also seen enough to know that plenty of injustices occur every day.

      Comment


        #48
        woman executed

        Originally posted by Speedgoat View Post
        Because in Texas, we still value the human life enough to allow them all of the appeals process. North Korea would have killed her the morning after the conviction.
        Yes we value life in TEXAS BUT I believe that if it is so clear cut why should we fit the bill for such long periods of time? Sun up the next dayThe system and WE THE PEOPLE have gotten SOOO week and over run by the pansies that the perps DO NOT fear the law any longer BUT they will fear the armed citizen if WE will stand up and take our country back BUT you probably value your kids life too much to stand up and protect it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

        Comment


          #49
          Originally posted by XBowHunter View Post
          We have executed innocent people already.

          That's a mistake I would not make and cannot forgive.

          The state should not be in this business, it's God right to judge and execute...

          The way I understand the bible none of us are qualified to execute, especially not the EVIL state that everyone here hates so much....



          John 8:6-8
          New International Version (NIV)
          6 They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.

          But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.” 8 Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.
          He also said that we were to follow the laws of the land. One of those laws is the death penalty.

          Comment


            #50
            Originally posted by jmeghunts View Post
            He also said that we were to follow the laws of the land. One of those laws is the death penalty.
            When laws of the land conflict with gods laws what are Christians to do?

            Follow god IMO....

            Comment


              #51
              I have had to be around several folks on death roll. Some were actually human- some just occupied a human body. I would say if these inmates can not ever be turned back into society with your children and families then it is time to end the potential threat to civilized society. Everyone has their own personal feelings. Once I spent a little time around a few of these animals and had children mine changed.

              Comment


                #52
                Originally posted by XBowHunter View Post
                When laws of the land conflict with gods laws what are Christians to do?

                Follow god IMO....
                With all due respect, I believe God covered it in Exodus.
                12 “He who strikes a man so that he dies shall surely be put to death. 13 However, if he did not lie in wait, but God delivered him into his hand, then I will appoint for you a place where he may flee.

                14 “But if a man acts with premeditation against his neighbor, to kill him by treachery, you shall take him from My altar, that he may die.

                15 “And he who strikes his father or his mother shall surely be put to death.

                16 “He who kidnaps a man and sells him, or if he is found in his hand, shall surely be put to death.

                17 “And he who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death.

                18 “If men contend with each other, and one strikes the other with a stone or with his fist, and he does not die but is confined to his bed, 19 if he rises again and walks about outside with his staff, then he who struck him shall be acquitted. He shall only pay for the loss of his time, and shall provide for him to be thoroughly healed.

                20 “And if a man beats his male or female servant with a rod, so that he dies under his hand, he shall surely be punished. 21 Notwithstanding, if he remains alive a day or two, he shall not be punished; for he is his property.

                22 “If men fight, and hurt a woman with child, so that she gives birth prematurely, yet no harm follows, he shall surely be punished accordingly as the woman’s husband imposes on him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. 23 But if any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

                26 “If a man strikes the eye of his male or female servant, and destroys it, he shall let him go free for the sake of his eye. 27 And if he knocks out the tooth of his male or female servant, he shall let him go free for the sake of his tooth.

                Comment


                  #53
                  Originally posted by glen View Post
                  I have had to be around several folks on death roll. Some were actually human- some just occupied a human body. I would say if these inmates can not ever be turned back into society with your children and families then it is time to end the potential threat to civilized society. Everyone has their own personal feelings. Once I spent a little time around a few of these animals and had children mine changed.
                  Life imprisonment without possibility of parole has removed the threat from society.

                  Plus God does not believe in capital punishment. Even sinners will live eternally, in hell...

                  Not to mention, life in a 5x8 cell 23 hours a day for life is worse punishment than the death if you ask me...

                  .02

                  Comment


                    #54
                    Originally posted by Tmag View Post
                    With all due respect, I believe God covered it in Exodus.
                    12 “He who strikes a man so that he dies shall surely be put to death. 13 However, if he did not lie in wait, but God delivered him into his hand, then I will appoint for you a place where he may flee.

                    14 “But if a man acts with premeditation against his neighbor, to kill him by treachery, you shall take him from My altar, that he may die.

                    15 “And he who strikes his father or his mother shall surely be put to death.

                    16 “He who kidnaps a man and sells him, or if he is found in his hand, shall surely be put to death.

                    17 “And he who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death.

                    18 “If men contend with each other, and one strikes the other with a stone or with his fist, and he does not die but is confined to his bed, 19 if he rises again and walks about outside with his staff, then he who struck him shall be acquitted. He shall only pay for the loss of his time, and shall provide for him to be thoroughly healed.

                    20 “And if a man beats his male or female servant with a rod, so that he dies under his hand, he shall surely be punished. 21 Notwithstanding, if he remains alive a day or two, he shall not be punished; for he is his property.

                    22 “If men fight, and hurt a woman with child, so that she gives birth prematurely, yet no harm follows, he shall surely be punished accordingly as the woman’s husband imposes on him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. 23 But if any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

                    26 “If a man strikes the eye of his male or female servant, and destroys it, he shall let him go free for the sake of his eye. 27 And if he knocks out the tooth of his male or female servant, he shall let him go free for the sake of his tooth.
                    I do not believe those OT jewish laws apply to christians, just Jews.

                    The 10 commandments are the only OT laws that apply to christians IMO...

                    Comment


                      #55
                      One escaped in Texas in 1998. Glad he didnt climb in a car with someones family. Guards are hurt and killed while working with these folks. They are also the most likely immates to throw feces and human fluids on guards. I would rather not take any chances once someone is obviously not fit to be in society.
                      If you could lock them up and forget about them until their death I wouldnt have a problem with it. However they have so many rights that they will always be a threat to society.

                      Comment


                        #56
                        Originally posted by XBowHunter View Post
                        I do not believe those OT jewish laws apply to christians, just Jews.

                        The 10 commandments are the only OT laws that apply to christians IMO...
                        Noted!

                        Comment


                          #57
                          Originally posted by jmeghunts View Post
                          He also said that we were to follow the laws of the land. One of those laws is the death penalty.

                          Ok. If you're going to use that logic, then why not use abortion as a method of birth control? It's the law of the land. Life without the possibility of release is ALSO a law of the land. So, by your own reasoning, following that law would be just as biblically correct.

                          The Bible is FULL if contradictions and you can cherry pick phrases to justify almost anything you can think of. It's also full of practices that most people would totally disagree with; and we look for the meaning behind the words and the message that's most consistent throughout. If you were standing at the gateway to heaven and we're asked about the choices you made and the positions you chose, would you prefer to be the guy who said, "I wanted retribution so I was willing to accept a few innocent deaths in order to satisfy my urge for revenge" OR would you prefer to be the guy that said, "rather than let an innocent man die by mistake in man's court, I chose to support the harshest penalty that didn't violate the 6th commandment and let God determine his ultimate punishment?"

                          Personally, I'd prefer to be the second guy, let God be the judge and play it safe. There's a LOT more in the Bible about letting God be the judge, forgiveness, what is and isn't a sin than there is about earthly revenge and man playing executioner. If there was an absolute test for guilt or innocence, it'd be a different story; but there isn't, so it's not.

                          To each their own, though.

                          Comment


                            #58
                            I went to see a play in Ft. Worth, the year would
                            have been around 2004, maybe '05. Whichever, the
                            year is unimportant.

                            The play was "The Exonerated". Actors portrayed
                            real individuals that had been on death row. In several
                            states. Kathleen Turner was one of the actors, Lyle Lovett,
                            another. And several character actors that I had seen
                            on TV and in movies. The number was around sixteen.

                            Each actor sat in a chair and told their (the real person's) story.
                            I distinctly remember that one person was on death row for
                            22 years. All were completely, entirely innocent of the crimes
                            they had been convicted of. Most were railroaded. The
                            prosecutors and law officers had in fact, lied throughout the judicial
                            process in many of those cases.

                            At the conclusion of the play, Lyle sang "Amazing Grace" without
                            musical accompaniment. The house was full and there was not
                            a dry eye in said house while and after he sang.

                            I'm for executing the truly guilty. But.

                            The system, having been proven over and over and over,
                            to be imperfect...

                            I'm opposed to the death penalty. If the person is indeed
                            guilty, I can think of no worse punishment than life without
                            [parole.


                            Death is irreversible. And I can think of no worse thing than
                            killing an innocent man. Or an innocent woman.


                            Bob Lee

                            Comment


                              #59
                              Originally posted by Horitexan View Post
                              Ok. If you're going to use that logic, then why not use abortion as a method of birth control? It's the law of the land. Life without the possibility of release is ALSO a law of the land. So, by your own reasoning, following that law would be just as biblically correct.

                              The Bible is FULL if contradictions and you can cherry pick phrases to justify almost anything you can think of. It's also full of practices that most people would totally disagree with; and we look for the meaning behind the words and the message that's most consistent throughout. If you were standing at the gateway to heaven and we're asked about the choices you made and the positions you chose, would you prefer to be the guy who said, "I wanted retribution so I was willing to accept a few innocent deaths in order to satisfy my urge for revenge" OR would you prefer to be the guy that said, "rather than let an innocent man die by mistake in man's court, I chose to support the harshest penalty that didn't violate the 6th commandment and let God determine his ultimate punishment?"

                              Personally, I'd prefer to be the second guy, let God be the judge and play it safe. There's a LOT more in the Bible about letting God be the judge, forgiveness, what is and isn't a sin than there is about earthly revenge and man playing executioner. If there was an absolute test for guilt or innocence, it'd be a different story; but there isn't, so it's not.

                              To each their own, though.

                              WTH ..... Are you serious?? In respect to the bold type in your statement....


                              Wilk

                              Comment


                                #60
                                I don't think people are railroaded or falsely convicted at the rate they used to be. Better technology to capture and process evidence

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