What is the point in Late Antlerless and Spike season?

[Javelin]

What's wrong with the East Yana bucks??

Stedman says culling doesn't work, but in the control pasture (East Yana), they have killed several 200+ bucks in the past several years.

I'd be happy with those results, wouldn't you?

Well considering that was a high fence and in every one of my post I speak of low fence operations I feel that part of the link has nothing to do with what I am saying. Furthermore that part of the study was more to see if you could change antler size by introducing totally new (kill ALL deer and bring new ones in) genetics. It did prove that that is possible. That particular part of the link was not to show culling works or doesn't work, besides they were culling 5.5 yr old deer when 99 percent of folks kill culls at 4.5 or younger.
The part of that particular link is the first half of the slides. There are others out there that I have read more thoroughly but that was the one I found to link here.

[Peyton]

Well considering that was a high fence and in every one of my post I speak of low fence operations I feel that part of the link has nothing to do with what I am saying. Furthermore that part of the study was more to see if you could change antler size by introducing totally new (kill ALL deer and bring new ones in) genetics. It did prove that that is possible. That particular part of the link was not to show culling works or doesn't work, besides they were culling 5.5 yr old deer when 99 percent of folks kill culls at 4.5 or younger.

The part of that particular link is the first half of the slides. There are others out there that I have read more thoroughly but that was the one I found to link here.

Then why did you link it???????

[Javelin]

Then why did you link it???????

The first half of it had good info. It is showing that Culling does NOT work unless you go through the extreme measures that they did. It even shows why culling in a normal situation does not work AND it was the only one I have saved, I was not going to spend hours googling the other studies.

[JW]

so they feed no protein, they have no age restrictions on bucks killed, they do not try to keep the herd ratio in check, nor do they do any other management practices that are proven to grow bigger bucks except cull what they think need to be culled?

What?! I never said we don't do all that. Very little to protein. Age restrictions, buck to do ratio kept in check as much as possible. And selective culling.

[Bayouboy]

Is it culling or opportunity?
For many of us it's about the opportunity to hunt more and put more meat on the table.
Excuse me while you stand there and argue over horns, mgt, and size.
I have another ice chest to fill

[Javelin]

What?! I never said we don't do all that. Very little to protein. Age restrictions, buck to do ratio kept in check as much as possible. And selective culling.

With doing all of that there is no way to know if culling is helping, hurting or doing nothing to benefit you. I would venture to say you would have just as many good bucks if you didn't cull anything and just shot 5.5 yr old or older bucks only.

The point is that the culling you are doing is not changing the genetics in your herd.

[JW]

What is the point in Late Antlerless and Spike season?

The point is that the culling you are doing is not changing the genetics in your herd.

Wrong again. The WMA I am a member of has records all the way back to 1972. Everything under the sun has been tried. The above mentioned with the addition of selective culling has shown "and been documented" to produce the best bucks. Note I said selective culling. Not shoot every thing that walks out I might think is a cull. This is where the game cams hv made this a lot easier.

[Javelin]

I have to respectfully disagree. For one you cannot even measure genetic change without taking genetic samples and doing studies on them and two you cannot prove one thing is what is producing better deer when you have more than one management practice in place. It is sorta like if you are sick and take 4 different meds. Which one cured you? Was it one of them, a couple of them or all of them?

[Lewis Stafford]

It solves plenty for high population areas in Texas outside your fences. If you don't like it or care for it stay at home....problem solved. Killing does in a highly populated area after they are bred kills two mouths each shot in a place the land has to support all spring, summer and early fall. It is all about removing mouths.

This 100%! If you practice management for your bucks then you have to practice management on your does/ fawns too. Balance is pinnacle in management.

[JW]

I have to respectfully disagree. For one you cannot even measure genetic change without taking genetic samples and doing studies on them and two you cannot prove one thing is what is producing better deer when you have more than one management practice in place. It is sorta like if you are sick and take 4 different meds. Which one cured you? Was it one of them, a couple of them or all of them?

You can when years ago it was a lot of big 8's and now it's a lot of big 10 ten plus's.

[Javelin]

You can when years ago it was a lot of big 8's and now it's a lot of big 10 ten plus's.

Age and genetic drift Having more old deer now than then can cause more 10pts as most know an 8 pt is not an 8 pt his whole life in the majority of deer. Over time any population will change due to several factors. One of which is new animals coming in. Especially in ETX where habitat is constantly changing deer tend to move quite a bit over the years. All I am getting at is in your situation there is no scientific proof that culling has done anything good or bad for your herd. In the studies out there that do have scientific evidence they show that culling in a non enclosed environment does nothing.

[JW]

What is the point in Late Antlerless and Spike season?

Age and genetic drift Having more old deer now than then can cause more 10pts as most know an 8 pt is not an 8 pt his whole life in the majority of deer. Over time any population will change due to several factors. One of which is new animals coming in. Especially in ETX where habitat is constantly changing deer tend to move quite a bit over the years. All I am getting at is in your situation there is no scientific proof that culling has done anything good or bad for your herd. In the studies out there that do have scientific evidence they show that culling in a non enclosed environment does nothing.

Aw hell bro. What we are doing out there works. It's documented.

I don't need scientific proof to show it works. All I need are the records that are kept each year, age, weight, score etc. Oh, and my eyeballs.

[Cull]

I try to take my does earlier in the season if at all possible. We have a fairly well managed deer herd and I believe that the does that are bred are generally bred by the better/bigger bucks in my area and that by killing does later, I may be killing off good genetics. I understand that my lesser deer (culls etc.) do some breeding as well, but hope that the majority is done by the bigger deer that I am saving for the coming seasons or haven't gotten a shot at before the rut.

I have no problem with the late season for those that have not had the opportunity to reduce their herd to numbers closer to the carrying capacity of their lease. Just my .02

[JW]

I try to take my does earlier in the season if at all possible. We have a fairly well managed deer herd and I believe that the does that are bred are generally bred by the better/bigger bucks in my area and that by killing does later, I may be killing off good genetics. I understand that my lesser deer (culls etc.) do some breeding as well, but hope that the majority is done by the bigger deer that I am saving for the coming seasons or haven't gotten a shot at before the rut.



I have no problem with the late season for those that have not had the opportunity to reduce their herd to numbers closer to the carrying capacity of their lease. Just my .02

A good 02!

[skeeter]

I live in East Texas, only season we have is "salt and pepper."

and the only book that matters is a cook book!