Biblical Question...

[Crazy Horse]

From what I remember and it was some time ago when I studied these teachings....he was asking for "animal sacrifice" correct??

In Leviticus you will find the offerings and how they are to be prepared.

29 And when you offer a sacrifice of thanksgiving to the Lord, offer it of your own free will.

The sacrifice of thanksgiving is an acknowledgement of peace with God, something freely given without constraint. You could think of it as similar to how we place our offerings in the collection plate today. We don’t gather them as some sort of sacrifice to appease God, we offer them freely out of thanksgiving for all that God has done for us. The “peace offering” was meant
to be a spontaneous expression of true thankfulness; it was to be a voluntary action of faith. The sacrifice that expresses thankfulness to God is only acceptable if it is FREELY GIVEN.

[Jesus is Coming]

Thoughtful discussion. As many as receive Jesus, He gives them power to become sons of God, even to them that believe on His name: which are born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which lives and abides forever.

[Bowtech1233]

I do believe God knows ahead of time all things that are to happen because he is all knowing. He allows things to happen but does not cause all things to happen.

I think this is a great statement. There is a BIG difference in God knowing what will happen (i.e. who will choose to accept His grace) versus God causing certain people to accept His gift of grace. The Bible makes it very clearly that everyone is able to accept this gift, but the reality is that not all will.

[camo_cowboy55]

John 16:33 says You shall have suffering. Not you might have suffering or you can have suffering, only that you Will have suffering. To have this suffering God allows us free choice. Read the Book of Job and see how God allowed Job to suffer, then reward his faithfulness. That's about all I got.

the book of JOB is my favorite book in the bible, specially when im down and depressed ill read that book and it cheers me up.

[SouthTX1911]

VERY good conversation. Thank you all for your input. The simplest statement was by SmithFarm. Can't think of any other way to state it. (if I wrote it out it would be redundant)

[xman59]

free will really revolves around our worshipping God, you can choose to or choose not too.... for those He has choosen they are pre ordained... some events in your life will take place whether you want them too or not,, your free will allows allows you to choose what type of church you go to, or if you go.. free will lets us choose heaven or hell, once you have heard the story of Jesus, you have to choose, one or the other,,
pre ordained events really apply more to those choosen by God to do certain things,,,, in my life that pre ordained event was being a cop,,, i look back now and realize i had no choice in that the Holy Spirit guided my steps God had determined long ago i would be a cop, and romans 13 states that the police officer is a minister apointed by God,, ( living bible uses the wording of police, king james referes to those in authority) now i could have quit at any point in my 30 years,, i came close a couple of times and just when i was about the pull the plug,, something would happen and i stayed,, yet as i got older and years passed i new retirement was approaching, it is a young mans job!, i put all of my time in on the streets... I talked to God about the timing,, and left it in his hands as to the actual time,, then one day i woke up put my uniform on and turned in my papers that day...
this was a pre determined event in my life , my years of service the ease at which i was hired and the peace i had at retirement... some people become cops and dont stay very long,, they all determine its not want they really thought it was, or get in trouble and are forced out.... not pre determined to be a cop....

[super_dave]

No free will would mean no true love. Forced worship or obedience is not love. But because He's all knowing, there must be a knowledge of what's to come.

[kingofhill76248]

Proverbs 16:9
The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps.

Joshua 24:15
And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”


John 7:17
If anyone's will is to do God's will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority.

Romans 13:2
Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

John 8:24
I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.”

Ephesians 2:2
In which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—

Galatians 5:16-17
But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do.

John 6:44
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

2 Timothy 2:26
And they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.

Luke 13:3
No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.

Leviticus 22:17-19
And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, “Speak to Aaron and his sons and all the people of Israel and say to them, When any one of the house of Israel or of the sojourners in Israel presents a burnt offering as his offering, for any of their vows or freewill offerings that they offer to the Lord, if it is to be accepted for you it shall be a male without blemish, of the bulls or the sheep or the goats.

Freewill and God’s sovereignty are not opposed to each other but run parallel with one other. Imagine that you are a slave on a ship. You are chained to the deck below. It is determined that you row for the captain of this ship. You have no choice but to be chained to this ship. This is like God’s sovereignty. But even here you have freewill. You are free to row or not to row. If you do not row you choose to receive beatings by the quartermaster, but if you row, you choose not to be beaten. You might even chose to break free of the ship by escaping your chains, but God’s sovereignty is not diminished.

God’s sovereignty does not diminish man’s freewill. God never twists anyone’s arm into heaven. God is all knowing of the past, present, and future. He alone knows what we will do. One example is that there are said to be over 600 prophecies in the Bible regarding Jesus Christ. God alone is able to know the future and the means to bring about what He desires to come to pass. You have freewill to either reject Him or to accept this saving grace. Either way, He knew it, He planned it, He purposed it, He desired it, and He predestined the very thing that you are now reading.

Thanks for the detail answer Crazy Horse

[xman59]

God’s sovereignty does not diminish man’s freewill. God never twists anyone’s arm into heaven. God is all knowing of the past, present, and future. He alone knows what we will do. One example is that there are said to be over 600 prophecies in the Bible regarding Jesus Christ. God alone is able to know the future and the means to bring about what He desires to come to pass. You have freewill to either reject Him or to accept this saving grace. Either way, He knew it, He planned it, He purposed it, He desired it, and He predestined the very thing that you are now reading.

^^Very well said and explained. Thank you!

actually he did twist arms but twice is all that is recorded so it sure does not happen often.... when saul was on the road to demascus before he became paul,, he was taken by force by God,,,, when your blinded and knocked off your hi-horse and told you will go and do ,, you will go and do!!

the other was Jonah, he did not want to go to Nineveh ( jonah 1:2 was the order, 1:3 was his refusal, 1:7 they drew lots and somehow jonah was picked by drawing straws, 1:17 God prepared a great fish to swallow Jonah were he survived for three days! 3:2 he gets the second order to go preach,which he did after the whale spit him out upon dry ground!!)
God did use force, because these two had other plans,, and they were changed , but not because they wanted too..
but this kind or arm twisting is most certainly rare,, neither did either by his free will, they were pre ordained...
at least in the begining of both events they were excersizing their free will,,
there are other events were people were told to go and do, and they complied,, even though they did not want the job,, like Moses,, he argued with the Lord but he went and did without force from God,, examples of His power but they were not used on Moses... Gideon is another, God told him to go and fight, he balked and made excuses why he shouldnt, but no force was used on him... had these two not followed Gods direction they too would have been forced...
you are correct in that God did not force them into heaven,, or did He?
I made my children do because i sometimes had plans for them they did not know about,, at other times they were told to go and do, and here is the reward, when it is done.... but sometimes they just had to go and do without immediate reward or compensation....

[Chew]

I asked a friend who is a Biblical scholar and author. Here is his response. There were several great points that caused me to think a lot.



These are really questions about God's sovereignty more than anything.

At one extreme, there are those of the Reformed view that hold that God foreordained every thought word and action we ever have. This is called the Decrees of God, but one searches in vain to find Biblical support. It is a philosophical conclusion because they argue that anything less would mean God is not sovereign.

At the other extreme is so-called open theism. God does not know the future, and while he can act to make things happen, he is learning as he goes because people make free will decisions. In the middle are various positions.

I take a middle ground that God's sovereignty means that everything that comes to pass was either caused or permitted by God, and that God has perfect foreknowledge (see Acts 15:18).

The problem with the open theism is that their "god" is not really a god at all. The problem with the other extreme is that if God foreordained everything then he is the author of sin and evil, which James 1 says is not so; by the way, this camp says man has a free will, but their definition of freedom really isn't freedom at all. There is no single verse that just says man has a free will. It is an inference from a number of things.

For instance, God knew Adam would sin in the Garden, yet every indication in the opening chapters of the Bible is that God made forbidden fruit attainable but Adam chose to sin just. If it was not his choice, then God made him do it in violation of James 1.

We might also argue that being in the image of God entails volition, for surely God has volition and we are in his image (made to be in a relationship with him). It seems to me God is not glorified by creatures that must choose or reject him, but is glorified by those that genuinely choose him.

Many verses tell people to seek God; were these in vain or do they indicate the ability to do so? Josh. 24:15, Deut. 4:29, 1 Chron. 16:11, Isaiah 55:6, Jer. 29:13, Hos. 5:15, Amos 5:4, Zeph. 2:3, Acts 17:26, Heb. 11:6, Isaiah 45:19 (here God says he did not make the command to seek him in vain). Indeed, those that don't seek him do so because of pride (Psalm 10:4).

Jesus said dozens of times in John's gospel to "believe," which suggests it is possible to do so and not preordained. God holds people accountable for sin throughout the Bible, and that makes sense if we are not robots but have a free will.

All said, clearly some events are foreordained, like Jesus being born of a virgin. Mary did not pick being pregnant. In my mind the balanced view, again, is simply that everything is either caused (e.g., Mary getting pregnant by the Holy Spirit) or permitted (Adam taking the fruit), but God has complete foreknowledge and is not being taken by surprise.

In my book Deconstructing Calvinism (Revised) (on Amazon) I deal with the decrees of God and also with the issue of whether God chose the "elect" to save and the rest are out of luck. We need to come to this with some balance and humility. The Bible presents God as sovereign and intervening in human history, yet implores men to make choices and punishes or blesses based on the choices and actions.

We should embrace that which is revealed but not get too dogmatic about the "what ifs" and all the potential inferences because we lack sufficient data.

Note that no verse suggests man has no free will, instead we read things like choose you this day whom you will serve??

[Tuffbroadhead]

Great post Chew!!

[Shane]

I agree with everything your friend said, Chew. He says it a lot better than I can, but that's my idea of a coin having two sides and still being a coin rather than being just one side or just the other side.

[VorTexan]

I asked a friend who is a Biblical scholar and author. Here is his response. There were several great points that caused me to think a lot.



These are really questions about God's sovereignty more than anything.

At one extreme, there are those of the Reformed view that hold that God foreordained every thought word and action we ever have. This is called the Decrees of God, but one searches in vain to find Biblical support. It is a philosophical conclusion because they argue that anything less would mean God is not sovereign.

At the other extreme is so-called open theism. God does not know the future, and while he can act to make things happen, he is learning as he goes because people make free will decisions. In the middle are various positions.

I take a middle ground that God's sovereignty means that everything that comes to pass was either caused or permitted by God, and that God has perfect foreknowledge (see Acts 15:18).

The problem with the open theism is that their "god" is not really a god at all. The problem with the other extreme is that if God foreordained everything then he is the author of sin and evil, which James 1 says is not so; by the way, this camp says man has a free will, but their definition of freedom really isn't freedom at all. There is no single verse that just says man has a free will. It is an inference from a number of things.

For instance, God knew Adam would sin in the Garden, yet every indication in the opening chapters of the Bible is that God made forbidden fruit attainable but Adam chose to sin just. If it was not his choice, then God made him do it in violation of James 1.

We might also argue that being in the image of God entails volition, for surely God has volition and we are in his image (made to be in a relationship with him). It seems to me God is not glorified by creatures that must choose or reject him, but is glorified by those that genuinely choose him.

Many verses tell people to seek God; were these in vain or do they indicate the ability to do so? Josh. 24:15, Deut. 4:29, 1 Chron. 16:11, Isaiah 55:6, Jer. 29:13, Hos. 5:15, Amos 5:4, Zeph. 2:3, Acts 17:26, Heb. 11:6, Isaiah 45:19 (here God says he did not make the command to seek him in vain). Indeed, those that don't seek him do so because of pride (Psalm 10:4).

Jesus said dozens of times in John's gospel to "believe," which suggests it is possible to do so and not preordained. God holds people accountable for sin throughout the Bible, and that makes sense if we are not robots but have a free will.

All said, clearly some events are foreordained, like Jesus being born of a virgin. Mary did not pick being pregnant. In my mind the balanced view, again, is simply that everything is either caused (e.g., Mary getting pregnant by the Holy Spirit) or permitted (Adam taking the fruit), but God has complete foreknowledge and is not being taken by surprise.

In my book Deconstructing Calvinism (Revised) (on Amazon) I deal with the decrees of God and also with the issue of whether God chose the "elect" to save and the rest are out of luck. We need to come to this with some balance and humility. The Bible presents God as sovereign and intervening in human history, yet implores men to make choices and punishes or blesses based on the choices and actions.

We should embrace that which is revealed but not get too dogmatic about the "what ifs" and all the potential inferences because we lack sufficient data.

Note that no verse suggests man has no free will, instead we read things like choose you this day whom you will serve??

Good post.

[Chew]

well thats what i thought