Once saved-always saved vs Apostasy

[SOLID EAGLE]

I think so, and that is what scares me - Jesus talks about it in Matthew 7:21-23

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

My thought on this is that some people can spend their whole lives seemingly doing Gods work, but having never really been saved. They were not saved, not because they messed up and sinned, but because they never had a personal relationship with Christ. If you truly put your FAITH in Jesus and that His shedding of blood paid for ALL of your sins, ask for forgiveness and ask Him to live in your heart, you WILL be saved.

[trjones87]

God never asks for a divorce through action or otherwise, but does the marriage still exist if the other person is cheating and stops communicating?


Team roper- thats what im getting at..

[Team Roper]

Good posts Shane; but to add to it how about Revelations 3:15-16? Jesus said "because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth" sounds pretty plain to me.

[Split Arrow]

Good posts Shane; but to add to it how about Revelations 3:15-16? Jesus said "because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth" sounds pretty plain to me.

The last book of the Bible is Revelation, not Revelations... sorry, it's a pet-peeve of mine.

[Split Arrow]

God never asks for a divorce through action or otherwise, but does the marriage still exist if the other person is cheating and stops communicating?


Team roper- thats what im getting at..

What does the word "eternal" mean to you? I'm not attempting to be condescending- it's a legitimate question: What does that word mean to you?

Marriage involves two human beings, both of which are imperfect. God is perfect, and his word never fails.

[Dusty Britches]

this very issue/ argument/ topic divided and ruined a church I once belonged to. be careful with it.

[312InchMagnum]

i didnt get a chance to read every post here, but thought i would share my thoughts on the subject...

first, i believe the "american church" has really screwed up the whole idea of salvation, and its really a shame...in tons of churches, there is so much empasis on saying a "prayer" and your all of the sudden "saved"...i do believe at some point you do say a prayer and confess your heart to Jesus and ask Him to be your savior...its not something you have to work to obtain, but its definately not some random prayer you repeat from someone and BAM, your good now...

BUT, the bible talks about when you are born again, it is a supernatural change within yourself, SUPERNATURAL...if you have truly been saved, and nothing has changed in the way you think, your moral compass, the way you act, i question your salvation...i believe there are tons of people who think they are saved who have emotionally said a prayer at an alter of some church one morning, and absolutely nothing changed in their hearts or their lives afterwards, it was purely an emotional moment...AND sadly, I believe there are thousands and thousands of people dieing who have been the church every time the doors were open their entire lives, and done all the "religious" stuff and never had a relationship with Jesus Christ who are going to HELL...

And think about this...
Jesus came to this earth as the Son of God correct?
He lived a sinless life correct?
He died a horrible death on the cross correct?
He shed his blood to cover all our past, present, and future sins correct?
He did this so we could have a relationship with God correct?
He did this so we could inherit the Kingdom of God correct?

If we were able to lose our salvation, then what he did on the cross was pointless...

check out the book "Radical" from David Platt...read with caution because it will rock your world!

[312InchMagnum]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cncEhCvrVgQ"]The Shocking Youth Message (Paul Washer) - YouTube[/ame]

watch this sermon...tell me what you think

[Shane]

I don't have a narrow mind at all- in fact, a few years ago I believe that one could turn their back on God and walk away. But my views have evolved with time.

The most powerful verse, to me, is

John 10:27-28- "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand"

Jesus gives eternal life to his sheep (Christians). He clearly articulates that they shall never parish. There is absolutely no qualifier there- like "they shall never parish if they remain faithful- nothing of the sort.

What is the definition of eternal? Everlasting, never ending. Jesus repeatedly says unequivocally that all who believe have eternal life. How could that be if eternal is only "maybe" eternal?

And then there's the "and no one shall snatch them out of My hand" to consider, which further emphasizes the idea that those who have eternal life will never perish. But can someone snatch themself out of Jesus' hand? Can I turn away and choose not to believe? I don't think so, because "no one" includes the person who is saved.

I could go on and one about this because having confidence in eternal life is an important aspect of my Christianity. If it's possible to fall away, then no Christian can possibly know if they presently have eternal life- it's possible that they may fall away in the future (if falling away is indeed possible)- But that contradicts 1 John 5:13 which says we can KNOW we have eternal life.

Like I said before, this is an interesting conversation that I'm passionate about. I understand the theology of those on both sides of the fence. It's nice to be able to have conversations like this with fellow believers without people getting angry at each other...

I didn't mean to imply that I thought you or anybody else was narrow-minded - at least by yourself. Heck, we're all narrow-minded from time to time and on one issue or another. We can't help it. We're imperfect.

I love the verses you quoted from John 10. It reminds me of one of my favorite passages from Romans 8.....

35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36 As it is written:

“For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”

37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

These scriptures tell us that salvation and God's love can never be taken away from us. Nobody can remove us from God's love and grace. That's extremely reassuring to me, because even though people can take my money, my health, my posessions, even my life or my family's lives, they can't take away my God or my salvation.

But that's different than me being able to reject it. I don't think that "no one" includes me, as you said. (just my take on it) I believe I can reject God if I ever wanted to, and the scriptures I mentioned earlier as well as others say that (as best I can tell). I certainly don't intend to ever reject God, and I can't even imagine myself contemplating it. But I believe it's possible, because I've seen people do it. Just like you changed your opinion on this topic (and I've changed mine on things), people can have a change of heart toward God. If a person can go from being a Jesus-hater to a servant of Jesus (like Paul did), why couldn't someone change the other way around? People do.

That doesn't make me feel insecure in my salvation at all. Neither does it make me feel like I have to be good enough to earn it. I accepted Jesus as my Lord, and I was baptized into His kingdom. I love God, and I do my best to serve Him by loving others. I mess up badly every day, but I am confident that His mercy and grace are there for me. I know that my salvation is secure, no matter how much I mess up, because my heart is His. Only God and I know that for sure, but that's all I need to have confidence in my salvation through His grace.

Much of the book of Romans deals with this. It's not possible to summarize the whole thing briefly, of course. That's part of the reason that we get into disagreements on things, because one person will mention one aspect of an issue while someone else mentions another aspect. It appears that it's contradictory when, in fact, the issue is broad enough to include both thoughts. But anyway, Romans 11 says this, and it's just part of the conversation about salvation and grace....

17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.


That seems to dovetail pretty well with what Jesus said to his apostles in John 15....

“I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love.



Those verses tell me that I need to maintain my relationship with Jesus. They don't make me worried that I'll lose my salvation though. If I thought that my salvation was dependent upon my good works being good enough, then, sure, I'd be VERY worried. But I know that God's grace is there for me, no matter how bad I mess up, as long as my heart belongs to Him.

Does that make any sense? It does to me, but that might must be because I'm crazy.

[Split Arrow]

I didn't mean to imply that I thought you or anybody else was narrow-minded - at least by yourself. Heck, we're all narrow-minded from time to time and on one issue or another. We can't help it. We're imperfect.

I love the verses you quoted from John 10. It reminds me of one of my favorite passages from Romans 8.....

35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36 As it is written:

“For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”

37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

These scriptures tell us that salvation and God's love can never be taken away from us. Nobody can remove us from God's love and grace. That's extremely reassuring to me, because even though people can take my money, my health, my posessions, even my life or my family's lives, they can't take away my God or my salvation.

But that's different than me being able to reject it. I don't think that "no one" includes me, as you said. (just my take on it) I believe I can reject God if I ever wanted to, and the scriptures I mentioned earlier as well as others say that (as best I can tell). I certainly don't intend to ever reject God, and I can't even imagine myself contemplating it. But I believe it's possible, because I've seen people do it. Just like you changed your opinion on this topic (and I've changed mine on things), people can have a change of heart toward God. If a person can go from being a Jesus-hater to a servant of Jesus (like Paul did), why couldn't someone change the other way around? People do.

That doesn't make me feel insecure in my salvation at all. Neither does it make me feel like I have to be good enough to earn it. I accepted Jesus as my Lord, and I was baptized into His kingdom. I love God, and I do my best to serve Him by loving others. I mess up badly every day, but I am confident that His mercy and grace are there for me. I know that my salvation is secure, no matter how much I mess up, because my heart is His. Only God and I know that for sure, but that's all I need to have confidence in my salvation through His grace.

Much of the book of Romans deals with this. It's not possible to summarize the whole thing briefly, of course. That's part of the reason that we get into disagreements on things, because one person will mention one aspect of an issue while someone else mentions another aspect. It appears that it's contradictory when, in fact, the issue is broad enough to include both thoughts. But anyway, Romans 11 says this, and it's just part of the conversation about salvation and grace....

17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.


That seems to dovetail pretty well with what Jesus said to his apostles in John 15....

“I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love.



Those verses tell me that I need to maintain my relationship with Jesus. They don't make me worried that I'll lose my salvation though. If I thought that my salvation was dependent upon my good works being good enough, then, sure, I'd be VERY worried. But I know that God's grace is there for me, no matter how bad I mess up, as long as my heart belongs to Him.

Does that make any sense? It does to me, but that might must be because I'm crazy.

It makes perfect sense, Shane. Both sides of this issue have compelling arguments to make. We'll just have to agree to disagree- and one day when we're both in heaven we'll laugh about how we were both wrong!

[Shane]

i didnt get a chance to read every post here, but thought i would share my thoughts on the subject...

first, i believe the "american church" has really screwed up the whole idea of salvation, and its really a shame...in tons of churches, there is so much empasis on saying a "prayer" and your all of the sudden "saved"...i do believe at some point you do say a prayer and confess your heart to Jesus and ask Him to be your savior...its not something you have to work to obtain, but its definately not some random prayer you repeat from someone and BAM, your good now...

BUT, the bible talks about when you are born again, it is a supernatural change within yourself, SUPERNATURAL...if you have truly been saved, and nothing has changed in the way you think, your moral compass, the way you act, i question your salvation...i believe there are tons of people who think they are saved who have emotionally said a prayer at an alter of some church one morning, and absolutely nothing changed in their hearts or their lives afterwards, it was purely an emotional moment...AND sadly, I believe there are thousands and thousands of people dieing who have been the church every time the doors were open their entire lives, and done all the "religious" stuff and never had a relationship with Jesus Christ who are going to HELL...And think about this...
Jesus came to this earth as the Son of God correct?
He lived a sinless life correct?
He died a horrible death on the cross correct?
He shed his blood to cover all our past, present, and future sins correct?
He did this so we could have a relationship with God correct?
He did this so we could inherit the Kingdom of God correct?

If we were able to lose our salvation, then what he did on the cross was pointless...

check out the book "Radical" from David Platt...read with caution because it will rock your world!

Don't take my question wrong. I'm not attacking you or anything. Just asking.... But how does this help anyone have confidence in their salvation though? I have heard a lot of people with real and heart-wrenching doubts say things along the lines of, "I said the sinner's prayer one time, and I thought I was saved. But now I'm struggling with sin still, and I'm told that if I had truly been saved then I would have been transformed and I wouldn't want to sin anymore. I don't know if I'm saved or not, because I still struggle with sin....."

People can get sidetracked into thinking about only one aspect of salvation and grace, and it can cause them to doubt either way. One worry is the possibility that falling from grace creates uncertainty, but the problem that goes along with the supposed "fix" for that is the worry over the uncertainty that maybe I didn't really mean it at the time and I'm not really saved. And if I think I mean it this time, how can I know for sure that I really do mean it and I really am saying the prayer right, etc....

People have doubts for all kinds of reasons, unfortunately.

[mitchbcs]

following along...

[buckarooboy]

For sure

[freezerfiller]

Following

[TimH]

When one first reads this passage, it's easy to interpret this to say
that it's possible to lose one's salvation, and not only lose it, but
that it's impossible to regain it. But we read this passage in light of
the truth of the gospel and knowing that God's Word does not contradict
itself, and we know that it cannot mean we can lose our salvation for
the following reason: If we can lose our salvation, then we are trusting
in ourselves to keep it - human works. We know that human works cannot
earn salvation, so human works could never lose salvation.

I also think it's worth pointing out that Hebrews 10:26 refers to those who have "knowledge of the truth", not those who have been saved. To me that's an important distinction. Many people know the story of Christ but don't fully believe it- in other words, they have "knowledge of the truth".

You become a new creation when you accept Christ, and it's impossible to revert back. Scripture is pretty clear about this. Another picture from this world could be made in the metamorphosis of a caterpillar into a butterfly and a tadpole into a bullfrog. once they have become "new creatures" they can NEVER go back to their most primal form....similarly, one who is a "new creation" in Christ can't
go back to being dead in their sins and trespasses

Amen!