When to shoot a spike?

[Speedgoat]

What about yearling does that cycle and get bred late in the season and may or may not produce enough milk? Those off spring will most certainly be spikes during the next season. So you are saying kill those too huh?

That is interesting, but doe only cycle, most of the time, twice in a season, if they are not bred the first time. In Texas, all breeding should be done by December. Are there exceptions to the rule, of course, but I don't really pay attention to those. You will always have an anomaly I can tell a 6 month old fawn from a 1.5 year old. Most bow hunters should be able to.

[Leon County Slayer]

I've shot a couple on my place for meat in the past but I've never seen a 3.5+ old spike before either....to each his own but i don't see that it helps much with regards to mgmt

[MQ32Shooter]

Yep Barnett, your'e right. That photo should sum it up, but guess it don't for most people.

[Encinal]

That is interesting, but doe only cycle, most of the time, twice in a season, if they are not bred the first time. In Texas, all breeding should be done by December. Are there exceptions to the rule, of course, but I don't really pay attention to those. You will always have an anomaly I can tell a 6 month old fawn from a 1.5 year old. Most bow hunters should be able to.

Man... the PEAK of the south Texas rut is Dec 15th... Bucks are chasing and breeding does into Feb and sometimes MARCH!

[Speedgoat]

Does having more to do with antlers that bucks is absolutely unproven conjecture...

It is only unproven in current circles, as most breeders have put more emphasis on the sire. Doe do have the inherent ability to produce their Father's genetics within their offspring. For example, this was discovered in Dog breeding, when Females were bred with their Fathers', they produced pups with the same characteristics as the Father, if not greater than the Father. When bred with another dog of similar characteristics, but not the father, they still produced commercially viable and desirable offspring with their Father’s characteristics. When bred with their son, or a sire with less than stellar genetics, the offspring were not as desirable, but often still maintained some of their Fathers' specific genetic code and traits.

[Speedgoat]

Man... the PEAK of the south Texas rut is Dec 15th... Bucks are chasing and breeding does into Feb and sometimes MARCH!

That is why I said most was done by December BTW, you have a great program

[Encinal]

It is only unproven in current circles, as most breeders have put more emphasis on the sire. Doe do have the inherent ability to produce their Father's genetics within their offspring. For example, this was discovered in Dog breeding, when Females were bred with their Fathers', they produced pups with the same characteristics as the Father, if not greater than the Father. When bred with another dog of similar characteristics, but not the father, they still produced commercially viable and desirable offspring with their Father’s characteristics. When bred with their son, or a sire with less than stellar genetics, the offspring were not as desirable, but often still maintained some of their Fathers' specific genetic code and traits.

That's because the offspring is 3/4 father!!!

If a doe is bred to her son... it produces genetics that are 3/4 doe!!!

That's line breeding... it works for anything with DNA or RNA...

That has nothing to do with the doe having more influence than the buck...

[Encinal]

That is why I said most was done by December BTW, you have a great program

Thanks!

Edit: Sorry That was a little too combative....whats your background bro? You a working Bio?

[Shane]

Spikes are legal fare, taste good and offer beginners an oppurtunity for a live deer target. A spike that looks like a fawn or a doe are usually young and should be allowed to walk, a spike thats big in body should shot on sight.

My first deer was a mule deer yearling spike. It was the 2nd deer I had a shot at. I missed a bigger, older buck the day before. I was happy to kill a legal buck, as I was just out to shoot the first deer with antlers of any kind that walked out. It's a great memory. But if we'd known or cared anything at all about management practices, I'm sure I would have had just as much fun passing that spike and shooting a bigger buck later that day or later in the season.

My son's first deer was a yearling spike whitetail several years ago. He blew his first chance at a bigger 8 point the hunt before too when he got excited and started laughing uncontrollably and spooked him. But him killing that little spike is still a great memory for both of us. Still, it would have been just as memorable if it had been a doe or if we'd passed the spike and waited for a more mature and bigger deer later. The place we were hunting on didn't have any kind of management program in place at all. Besides, I'd heard something about spikes being inferior anyway.

Kids enjoy hunting - and we should make it as enjoyable for them as we can. But we should also teach them that the joy of hunting isn't just the success of a kill. It's in the hunt, the fellowship, the experience of nature, the learning and practice of good ethics and wildlife stewardship, and, yes, in the feeling of accomplishment when it all comes together and you kill something.

I don't think anybody is a bad person for shooting a young spike. But after learning more about it (including hearing the whole deal at Kerr when we hunted there a few years ago) along with several more years of paying attention to deer on places I've hunted, I now think that it's better to leave your yearling spikes alone unless you have too many bucks on your place and you need to reduce buck numbers. I've never hunted a ranch that had that problem, but I know there are some places that do.

But for most of the rest of us, killing baby bucks is counter-productive if we are hoping to end up with more mature bucks with larger racks. You'll never be able to have nothing but 200"+ bucks on a low fence ranch. The reality is that you will have a lot of average racks, a few monsters, and a few culls. The bell curve is what it is. The question on low fence ranches is, do you want to have fewer mature bucks or more mature bucks in your herd?

Again, if you're talking about a high fenced ranch's management plan when they are trying to keep the deer population from exceeding carrying capacity and their buck/doe ratio is where they want it to be already, then it may very well be the best thing to shoot yearling spikes. That's an enviable problem to have.

[Shane]

Yep Barnett, your'e right. That photo should sum it up, but guess it don't for most people.

Great photo to illustrate the difference between a baby and a cull.

[KRF]

KAP... I mean KAS. Shoot on sight.

[southpaw]

Why let a spike grow up to be a cull. Shoot him early.

[SKLOSS]

Have any of you guys knocking the Kerr study ever been to the entire symposium and listened to the biologists explain the study?

The studies were conducted with extreme control, even down to the amount of water and shade animals were given in their habitat. The animals that were stressed all got the same stress. The animals fed supplements were all fed exactly the same. Etc.Etc.

Time and time again 1.5 year old branched antler deer out-performed 1.5 year old spike deer. Leave yearlings out of the argument.

THAT BEING SAID, DON'T EVEN START MANAGING YOUR BUCKS UNTIL YOU ARE AT 1:1 (BUCKOE)

I would bet a crisp $1 bill that all you guys worrying about spikes have about 5 doe for every buck anyway. OR you don't have a feeding program in place, other than a few corn slingers. LET IT GO killing a spike ain't gonna help your 100 acre deer lease in east texas

WANT TO HELP YOUR DEER HERD????? Plant food plots! Get on an MLD program! Form a co-op with your neighbors to set guidlines for a larger block of land!

You have to be an Aggie. Only an Aggie would think like that!!

[Speedgoat]

Thanks!

Edit: Sorry That was a little too combative....whats your background bro? You a working Bio?

No, I just stayed at a Holiday Inn express last night

Seriously though, I studied at Northwestern State University, but I am active military. Doe carry residual DNA and alot of it has to do with body size, antler growth, and most of all, resistance to disease. There has not been enough research done, IMO, into the age and overall health of the deer herd as it pertains to genetics. Why do some deer live to ten years of age and older and others decline at six? Why are body sizes different on the same ranch? There are a ton of variables to consider, but we have only begun to understand the easiest/obvious ones.

[Peyton]

I don't think anybody is a bad person for shooting a young spike. But after learning more about it (including hearing the whole deal at Kerr when we hunted there a few years ago) along with several more years of paying attention to deer on places I've hunted, I now think that it's better to leave your yearling spikes alone unless you have too many bucks on your place and you need to reduce buck numbers. I've never hunted a ranch that had that problem, but I know there are some places that do.

But for most of the rest of us, killing baby bucks is counter-productive if we are hoping to end up with more mature bucks with larger racks. You'll never be able to have nothing but 200"+ bucks on a low fence ranch. The reality is that you will have a lot of average racks, a few monsters, and a few culls. The bell curve is what it is. The question on low fence ranches is, do you want to have fewer mature bucks or more mature bucks in your herd?

Again, if you're talking about a high fenced ranch's management plan when they are trying to keep the deer population from exceeding carrying capacity and their buck/doe ratio is where they want it to be already, then it may very well be the best thing to shoot yearling spikes. That's an enviable problem to have.

THIS!!!!!

Killing spikes younger than 2.5 is counter-productive for 99% of places!