Deer management question????

[bowhuntntxn]

I am not saying trophy management is bad. It is awesome when the whole group is on board with it. BUT with that being said, it seems kinda silly to ask people to change the way they hunt after being with the same people doing the same thing for a decade. And then to threaten them with fines or possibly get kicked off for not wanting to change how they have been operating for such a long time seems a little selfish, especially if everyone pays the same amount to be on the place. People who hunt for fun do not look down upon people who manage land for trophies. Why is it not the other way around? Why does it seems that trophy hunters think that non trophy hunters are going to ruin the hunting for everyone if they do not comply with their way of thinking?

How about the OP move to a better managed property where everyone is in line with his management thoughts, instead of trying to remove the ones who dont think like he does? Something has got to give...

[Encinal]

I am not saying trophy management is bad. It is awesome when the whole group is on board with it. BUT with that being said, it seems kinda silly to ask people to change the way they hunt after being with the same people doing the same thing for a decade. And then to threaten them with fines or possibly get kicked off for not wanting to change how they have been operating for such a long time seems a little selfish, especially if everyone pays the same amount to be on the place. People who hunt for fun do not look down upon people who manage land for trophies. Why is it not the other way around? Why does it seems that trophy hunters think that non trophy hunters are going to ruin the hunting for everyone if they do not comply with their way of thinking?

How about the OP move to a better managed property where everyone is in line with his management thoughts, instead of trying to remove the ones who dont think like he does? Something has got to give...

Because Trophy hunters are having different fun entirely that is being ruined by people that shoot anything that moves. The two types of fun cannot co-exist!!! Just as rules ruin the fun of people that want to shoot anything... Shooting anything ruins the fun of people that want to hunt big deer.

[Daniel75]

I am not saying trophy management is bad. It is awesome when the whole group is on board with it. BUT with that being said, it seems kinda silly to ask people to change the way they hunt after being with the same people doing the same thing for a decade. And then to threaten them with fines or possibly get kicked off for not wanting to change how they have been operating for such a long time seems a little selfish, especially if everyone pays the same amount to be on the place. People who hunt for fun do not look down upon people who manage land for trophies. Why is it not the other way around? Why does it seems that trophy hunters think that non trophy hunters are going to ruin the hunting for everyone if they do not comply with their way of thinking?

How about the OP move to a better managed property where everyone is in line with his management thoughts, instead of trying to remove the ones who dont think like he does? Something has got to give...

Can't speak for the OP, but to even toss this idea around I would assume there's a majority that wants the change. I think it's a great idea under the right conditions. Just because they've been doing something for 10 years doesn't mean they can't change. I'd just say, "Hey, we're trying to go in a different direction and better our deer herd for the long term. If its something you'd like to be a part of, we'd love to have you. If its not something you're interested in, that's fine too, it's been great hunting with you the last 10 years."

No reason to be ugly with them.

[Horitexan]

There's got to be willingness for it to really work.

You can try putting a graduated width requirement in place; like, 13" for 4 points or less, 14" for 5 & 6 points, 15" for 8 & 9 points, 16" for 10 & 11 points and 18" for 12 or more points. It's not nearly as good aa aging them but it would help.

[huntingfanatic]

If they are still shooting whatever walks out then it sounds like to me they are not necessarily interested in shooting bigger deer so it sounds like you are going to have to talk them
Into it or get new people. If you have to talk them into it it's probably not going to be a good deal. To me, managing for trophy deer is a mindset and a goal and I surround myself with people who are like minded. Their is not anything wrong with either but they just don't mix.

[Encinal]

There's got to be willingness for it to really work.

You can try putting a graduated width requirement in place; like, 13" for 4 points or less, 14" for 5 & 6 points, 15" for 8 & 9 points, 16" for 10 & 11 points and 18" for 12 or more points. It's not nearly as good aa aging them but it would help.

If they will agree to follow those rules... You might as well just go with age... Antler restrictions work on a macro scale, but are horrible for site specific management. They kill your big outliers and protect the small outliers. This doesn't make a difference as far as genetics... But since the big outliers are the ones you want to grow up... And most will satisfy antler restrictions earlier than average, they are actually legal to kill earlier than a sub-standard deer.

[Coach W]

Yes some of them will shoot Andrew not tell if they mess up.

Whos Andrew??? And why are they willing to shoot him? And then not tell people they shot andrew? If I were Andrew on your lease Id get off ASAP!!!!

As to the OP. Our Rule states 4.5 years or older. Thats the culling year. Regardless of how big. Any infraction of any rule can result in IMMEDIATE loss of hunting rights. No fines for me... If you cant manage to follow the rules youre out.

I also put deer on the NO KILL list... a few 10-12 pointers that are 2.5-3.5years old.. They are VERY good looking deer and in the heat of the moment I dont want someone to make a mistake and shoot a nice buck that in 2-3 years will be a MONSTER!!!! If you want big OLD deer you cant shoot them young...

As to the "they have been there for 10 years and may not care for your rules" argument.. So be it. Set the rules out there, If they dont like it, they need to move on.

[Archery1st]

they are deer. is it really that important to restrict and control everything people do, especially when they pay the same amount of money to be there as you do? if it were your land, or you were the one paying a bigger share than others, then I would say put what ever restrictions you want to on the place. but if the guys are happy with the first legal deer, why should they be forced into something? if they truly are committed to having larger deer to hunt, they will stop shooting younger deer all on their own. if not they will keep on doing what they have been doing for a decade, and it hasnt hurt anything yet.

fines and rules are killing this FUN sport IMO. it is a deer. there are plenty of them.

The question was "how to" do deer management...not do you think it is a good idea. Thats a totally different topic and one you will find polar opposite opinions on.

[canny]

As mentioned earlier, there needs to be some background on the property, such as size, management history, number of hunters. This all plays into creating the right plan for your property.

The first question you really need to look at is what do you define as an acceptable age. I noticed in the OP it said mature, well you can define mature as 4.5 yrs, or it can be 5.5, 6.5, 7.5, etc.

Second, you need to determine if this is a feasible goal given your set up. On my personal property, of 260 acres, I know it is not a reasonable goal to harvest bucks over 5.5 yrs old. This is simply due to high hunting pressure in surrounding properties and our property not being large enough to actually hold a significant number of deer. Therefore a realistic goal for us is bucks must reach at least 3.5 to be considered shootable, preferrably 4.5. This is completely different than what most consider trophy management, therefore I call it realistic managment.

[HC Sniper]

Using width to decide whether the buck is shootable is not a good condition. I shot a 12 point this year that was 6.5-7.5 years old and only had a 13 inch spread (on the button). This buck scored 146 5/8 with a broken tine (was 4 inches long according to TC photos, making buck over 150). There is no way I let that buck walk!

It is correct that both side do not coexist very well. Looks like one side or the other will have to look into a new place to hunt in order to be happy. That is not an option for me since I hunt with family. I just smile and nod and try my best to politely explain my side. On the other hand, if I had been on the place for 10 years and all of a sudden someone wanted to change the operation to suit them, then I wouldn't be very happy about it. Unless it is the owner of the land, then I know who should be looking for the new place.

[Thwackmaster]

As mentioned earlier, there needs to be some background on the property, such as size, management history, number of hunters. This all plays into creating the right plan for your property.

The first question you really need to look at is what do you define as an acceptable age. I noticed in the OP it said mature, well you can define mature as 4.5 yrs, or it can be 5.5, 6.5, 7.5, etc.

Second, you need to determine if this is a feasible goal given your set up. On my personal property, of 260 acres, I know it is not a reasonable goal to harvest bucks over 5.5 yrs old. This is simply due to high hunting pressure in surrounding properties and our property not being large enough to actually hold a significant number of deer. Therefore a realistic goal for us is bucks must reach at least 3.5 to be considered shootable, preferrably 4.5. This is completely different than what most consider trophy management, therefore I call it realistic managment.

Its around 1000ac, one manager for the last 10 years, and 13 hunters.

[canny]

Its around 1000ac, one manager for the last 10 years, and 13 hunters.

Location? management history such as controlled burning or other native range improvement, supplemental feed in the form of food plots (spring/summer) and/or free choice feeders.

Just being general but at 1000 acres and 13 hunters that means roughly 1 hunter per 77 acres. This is not a good sign to begin with. Having this high of a density usually means that the majority of the property is being disturbed by some sort of human activity. Often this will result in mature bucks, if present, go nocturnal really early due to high traffic throughout the property getting prepared for hunting season. Also, out of those 13 members how many of them are willing to not shoot a buck each year. Depending on the location of the property I am highly doubtful that 13 bucks that are at least 3.5 could be killed, much less that many 4.5+.

[JAGR]

http://www.amazon.com/3025-Selective-Buck-Harvest-Poster/dp/B002LH26OI

Post this somewhere at camp.

[BowSlayer]

We have a couple of guys on our lease that can not judge age yet as they are just getting into hunting. What we do is share game cam pics and discuss as a group which deer are on the hit list and which ones need to walk. We had a member shoot a 2 year old 8 point this past season but it was the biggest deer he had ever taken so all he got from the rest of us was high 5's. He was later told that the next deer he shoots should be bigger than the last and he agreed. Being too strict on a deer lease takes all the fun out of it to me.

[Patton]

they are deer. is it really that important to restrict and control everything people do, especially when they pay the same amount of money to be there as you do? if it were your land, or you were the one paying a bigger share than others, then I would say put what ever restrictions you want to on the place. but if the guys are happy with the first legal deer, why should they be forced into something? if they truly are committed to having larger deer to hunt, they will stop shooting younger deer all on their own. if not they will keep on doing what they have been doing for a decade, and it hasnt hurt anything yet.

fines and rules are killing this FUN sport IMO. it is a deer. there are plenty of them.

Can see where your coming from completely with that, and there should be ranches and groups of hunters that are for that.

There should also be ranches and groups of hunters, like a lot of TBH's I believe, who are about deer management and maximizing the potential of the local deer on their ranch