Spikes...Too shoot or not to shoot???

[Coach W]

Buff I agree with qzilla. You manage a place and its just that... You gotta manage it. I wouldnt kill any 1.5's to make quota, pick the ones that stay and cull the rest.

[Hawkins]

I dont care what anyone says.

here is my best trophy yet. This was my sons FIRST whitetail hunt, and he "helped" shoot it.

we put some meet and the freezer and have a great memory. cant wait to make more. cant wait for a few more years for him to shoot an unassisted whitetail of his own. will probably be a doe or spike as well...

you cant eat bone and you cant take it with you when you go. Not saying I dont enjoy hunting nice bucks. BUT, I am gonna put meat on my table to.

There is nothing wrong with this, I've killed a few back in my younger days for meat. The arguement here is when you say you kill a spike for management purposes.

[qzilla]

I dont care what anyone says.

here is my best trophy yet. This was my sons FIRST whitetail hunt, and he "helped" shoot it.

Once again, we are mixing emotions with science.

What you did with your boy is Fantastic and I applaud you. I don't think the fact that what he ended up with was a spike is relevant. Would those feelings not have been the same if it was a doe, nubbin buck or even a small forked horn buck?

Once again, there is no need to justify shooting any animal that is legal. Don't care who, what, when, why or where. As long as you are happy then I am happy.

will probably be a doe or spike as well...

At this rate you are probably correct. However if you will stick to shooting the doe and letting the spike walk for a couple of years when he really doesn't care, your chances of him shooting something other than a spike will go up exponentially.

[qzilla]

I think on high fenced places spikes are whacked. or places trying to acheive massive 20k+ or 200"+ deer.

Wrong. Spikes are shot far less frequently on places like you are mentioned than they are on low fenced places.

BUT he will never be a 200" monster that someone would pay thousands on thousands of dollars for.

Wrong. It happens more than you think.

thats my opinion.

And just so we know, what is your opinion based on? I want to know where these thoughts and myths originate from. Only then can we have a chance at better educating people that want to know.

[Speedgoat]

The last thing that I will say on it is this. You can try to dress the genetic pool up all you want and say that spikes are not inferior, the fact remains that they are. Genetics are what gives an animal an inherent ability to sustain and thrive during adverse conditions. Can you create a helthy herd through spike harvest alone, no. You must have a management system in place that is multi-faceted and concentrates on these key things. 1.) Buck/Doe Ratio. 2.) Habitat(cover) 3.)Food and Water 4.) Herd age structure. Some will disagree on what does to shoot. If you are on a large acerage place, then I would suggest killing spikes that are at least one and a half years old and older and killing does that are three and a half and older. Does carry a large portion of the genetics and should be targeted, if antlers and body weight is what you seek. Once you see a change in the number of spikes you are seeing, then you can set the doe age back to 4-5 year olds. Some say that you can't tell which spikes to shoot because of there being late born fawns. Late born fawns occur when the deer herd numbers are out of whack, so pick up your doe harvest numbers. Guys make tons of money trying to persuade folks into buying in on their theories. If I put a 1.5 year old spike and a 1.5 year old 4 pt in front of you, then which one is inferior? Which one do you assume to have the greater body weight? It is too easy. Now, are there exceptions to the rule, yes, as in all of life. Afterall, Mother Nature is the great equalizer.

[qzilla]

The last thing that I will say on it is this. You can try to dress the genetic pool up all you want and say that spikes are not inferior, the fact remains that they are. Genetics are what gives an animal an inherent ability to sustain and thrive during adverse conditions. Can you create a helthy herd through spike harvest alone, no. You must have a management system in place that is multi-faceted and concentrates on these key things. 1.) Buck/Doe Ratio. 2.) Habitat(cover) 3.)Food and Water 4.) Herd age structure. Some will disagree on what does to shoot. If you are on a large acerage place, then I would suggest killing spikes that are at least one and a half years old and older and killing does that are three and a half and older. Does carry a large portion of the genetics and should be targeted, if antlers and body weight is what you seek. Once you see a change in the number of spikes you are seeing, then you can set the doe age back to 4-5 year olds. Some say that you can't tell which spikes to shoot because of there being late born fawns. Late born fawns occur when the deer herd numbers are out of whack, so pick up your doe harvest numbers. Guys make tons of money trying to persuade folks into buying in on their theories. If I put a 1.5 year old spike and a 1.5 year old 4 pt in front of you, then which one is inferior? Which one do you assume to have the greater body weight? It is too easy. Now, are there exceptions to the rule, yes, as in all of life. Afterall, Mother Nature is the great equalizer.

You are so convincing that I really want to believe you but, I just need to see some of your results from this management system.

I have only asked in like every spike thread ever on TBH.

Also, since you really believe this:

If I put a 1.5 year old spike and a 1.5 year old 4 pt in front of you, then which one is inferior? Which one do you assume to have the greater body weight? It is too easy.

I REALLY need you to swing by our breeder pens about July of every year so you can tell me what to sell and keep. I am going to pay you well. Probably at least $500 per deer.

Oh and since they are DNA certified and we know where they go, I will keep tabs on them over the next couple of years and if you were wrong, well then I will need some restitution.

It is too easy.

So before next summer lets get a contract lined out. I hate keeping bucks around longer than needed. I am so excited that we can now cull our bucks at 1.5 in the pens. I will get rich!!!!!

[Chad C]

Seems like AR worked perfect in this instance to me? A 5.5 yr old buck in an AR county is a win. Not too many years ago deer over 2.5 were very rare in most of those counties.

So what, 1 buck wasn't legal. Do you really think having an age structure was hurting that county or even that ranch? On average a mature buck sires 1.2 fawns per year. Unless you only have 2 deer on the ranch I am guessing his genetics will never be noticed.

Most of the counties in the state are AR...Quad,,, At least all of the old one buck counties are!

If you new the scenario, sure! Though, your assumption is incorrect. This place is in Stephens County and the hunters use typical management practices. The property has been hunted by the same group for 30 years. This buck is an example of a rather strong gene pull in the area. It yields a lot of narrow racked bucks. The largest taken off this particular place, scored 156 as a nine point with a 15" spread. The buck was off limits as well as several others due to AR. We're not dealing with shooters here, but management minded hunters!

Like I said, it's not perfect! I didn't say, it doesn't work.

[bowhuntntxn]

How about this analogy for anybody with a son.

First grade soccer-- your son is 2 inches shorter than everyone else in the group, and a couple of steps slower. Should he be taken out of sport all together at that age, or be allowed to grow and learn and maybe catch up to his peers? Or is it confirmed that he will never be as good, as tall, or as fast as everyone else the same age as him?

Now say the same thing for a deer.

[Tylerbost33]

You will get a ton of replies. Some for, some against. A first year buck that has spikes instead of nubs is a keeper. A buck on his second set if a spike is a shooter. Genetics enable a deer to better handle the lean years and range conditions while still being able to produce maximum bone. Branched antlered deer in this year's drought are the keepers. Spikes will be more than spikes, but will NEVER have the same opportunity and potential as a branch antlered buck of the same age, if all variables dealing with habitat, food, water, and nutrition are the same. IMO

this is the best answer you could get... read this and base your choice off of it.

[Silent Assassin]

I have a small spike coming in every day and I won't shoot him I will let a youth shoot him but I'll pass.

x2. I held out on spike last Friday morning, thought it'd be cool to let Mia, my daughter to shoot her first spike deer, even though my first deer was a doe from last year. I've not had any chances on deers this year. I am pleased to have hogs all over my feeder for me to shoot and let little 8 and under 13" 8 pointers to grow until next year or so before I can take em down.

Good luck.

[qzilla]

This buck is an example of a rather strong gene pull in the area.

I am not following you at all. So how is this buck a product of an imperfect or a failed AR system? So it was a drought year and he died but, he was not a spike or a small forky? So he was narrow. Might be genes, might be the drought? No one knows for sure.

This buck was killed in a NON-AR county, on our place where we shoot deer that are as wide as 27". Is this a NON-AR issue or sometimes are old deer just narrow?

No system is going to produce all wide or all narrow deer.

this is the best answer you could get... read this and base your choice off of it.

What are you basing your "best answer" vote on?

[Chad C]

I am not following you at all. So how is this buck a product of an imperfect or a failed AR system? So it was a drought year and he died but, he was not a spike or a small forky? So he was narrow. Might be genes, might be the drought? No one knows for sure.

This buck was killed in a NON-AR county, on our place where we shoot deer that are as wide as 27". Is this a NON-AR issue or sometimes are old deer just narrow?

No system is going to produce all wide or all narrow deer.





What are you basing your "best answer" vote on?

I'm not sure what your not getting... I told you 30 years/common gene pool. Due to the AR rule we can no longer take these deer out of the gene pool. He's not the only one, I'm pretty sure I stated that. I never said it was a failed system, I said it's not perfect! How many times would you like for me to repeat that?!?!?! The state is doing what they think is best for the overall age class. In this situation...a place that has had an issue with narrow racked deer. It's now illegal to take them out of the herd.

I'm glad you keep going around the fact that I stated "it's less than perfect". I'm glad they're doing something to help age structure, but it's not the best management tool!


On another note. Did you kill the Booner off the KR pasture you were after?

[Buff]

Qzilla... Thanks for the reply.
Our big handy cap is the land owner pays for the helicopter survey and expects us to kill what he recommends . If I had my way, I would not shoot any bucks this year but I respect his right to put quotas on us. I agreed to it when I leased from him.
I hated taking 60 does last year. I felt it was way to many but at the respect what he has done with his other places in the hill country

[qzilla]

I'm not sure what your not getting...

Let me see if I can help you out then.

You say:

This place is in Stephens County and the hunters use typical management practices. The property has been hunted by the same group for 30 years.

This buck is an example of a rather strong gene pull in the area. It yields a lot of narrow racked bucks.

I told you 30 years/common gene pool.

And then you say this, which is what baffles me:

Due to the AR rule we can no longer take these deer out of the gene pool. He's not the only one, I'm pretty sure I stated that.

So, let me re-cap.

Hunters are there for 27 seasons. They are management minded and not just "shooters". This gene "pull" has always been around.

I think I got that right?

AR started in 2009 for stephens co.

So basically even though they could not "shoot out" this "bad" gene in 27 years of hunting, the AR system "isn't perfect" because they cannot shoot these deer?

I am going to put it this way. They hunters on average had 3 life cycles of bucks to work on this without restrictions and half of a life cycle on AR but, somehow AR is to blame?

Yup, still don't get the gripe.

The state is doing what they think is best for the overall age class.

Which is what I said repeatedly in this thread.

In this situation...a place that has had an issue with narrow racked deer. It's now illegal to take them out of the herd.

Because taking them out fixes the issue????

I am still confused.

Are they just mad because they think they have less legal deer to shoot or because they think the state is stopping them from spreading the genes or what?

but it's not the best management tool!

It is terrible for antler management and is not intended to be for antler management.

Here is what TPWD says about it:

According to Clayton Wolf, TPWD big game program director, the antler restrictions have significantly improved age structure while maintaining ample hunting opportunity, based on data to date in the 61 counties where the rule is currently in effect.

If you are mad about AR because you don't think you have bucks to shoot because they are all narrow I guess I sort of understand but, I would think that after 30 years of being on a place they might just want to apply for MLDP and sidestep the issue.

[qzilla]

Our big handy cap is the land owner pays for the helicopter survey and expects us to kill what he recommends .

Well, in that case you are just limited. Do what he says or get a different place. I would just be cautious to how much time and money I personally dumped into a place if there is a dead end road.

At the end of the day the guy that owns the roost rules it!