An idea for the 13" rule...

[huntmaster]

I had this discussion with a TPWD biologist this past wknd. they are still workin off the 74 Kerr study and too many deer theory. there are several studies that have been done since that show spikes catch up to forked antler yearlings by yr 3 or 4. Dr Kroll has a good video called "Antlers" that would be a good one to watch for those interested in this stuff.

[Hockley]

The "once a spike, always a spike" concept just ticks me off. I've NEVER seen a 5yr old spike....

[Quackerbox]

The study HAS ALREADY BEEN DONE - It is the justification for the spike rule... young spike under 3" - 50% will always be a spike - it's a predisposition to genetics.

Deer over 18 months old with one unbranched antler - 98% will always be "UNBRANCHED"

The studys have been done... I'll try to find TPWD's actual results and post them soon.

They wouldn't have passed the ruling without a study of some sort.

Preciate it if you find it Id like to read it.

But 50%!!! under 3 always being a spike IMO those numbers suck. Ive seen my share of spikes this year and only one I thought about shooting. Until last year we hadnt taken any spikes in a loooong time and we took 3. One was actually a 2.5 3pt one was a 1.5 yr old with 5" spikes and one only had one hard horn the other side had a deformity and wouldnt grow. I past a spike at 10yds that was only 2 or 3 inches this year cause he looked like he should have still had spots he was so small. Here I was thinking dang hes grown horns already

[dustoffer]

The Kerr spike study's science is flawed--penned deer and selective breeding. Dr. Kroll's study uses wild deer, and has a much larger population in the study which insures more reliable data. Just my opinion, but I have quit shooting spikes, as Dr. Kroll convinced me. You can read a 4-part article by Dr. K in several issues of the TTH Journal.

[scooter1982]

I will never shoot a spike, at least not one under 1.5 yrs. If after they are 2.5+ thats a different story. 1.5 spikes have plenty of time to catch up in antler growth as they age, if they have proper nutrition.

[Russ79]

What dustoffer said. Dr. Kroll did a study where they tagged a large number of spike and three points and another group of bucks with more than three points and turned back loose in the wild. They would trap them every year for I think the next five years and measure their antlers. I think it was by the third year they found that statistically there was no difference in total inches of antlers between the two groups.

[Buckwheat]

I am like you and have heard convincing arguements on both sides of the spike debate. We are not shooting spikes on our lease because of Dr. Kroll's seminar that the we went to that made an impresion. I am not saying that he is right and others are wrong. He just made sense to me on that issue and that is the guideline we are choosing to follow.

I think that would be a great way to end the arguement (tagging spikes). I would love to see that happen. I am also a fan of the 13" rule. I have seen a record amount of bucks on our small lease and we are seeing bigger deer since the 13" rule has come into effect. It is not an exact science but I belive it is better than the alternative of just shooting anything with horns.

it might be that i read into what Dr. kroll Was sayin in an article i read about spikes. what i got from it is that spikes dont grow to a fork horns potintial. so now reading this i am going to RE-read his article. I to am a fan of the 13" rule and we r getting into the better managment of our deer herd. yes i have shot 2 spikes the past 2 yrs but these were deer old enough not to be spikes. 2.5 or older. am i right by doing this? i hope so!

[Maroon Blade]

I've seen spikes turn into 130's, 140's, 150's, 160's, and even boone & crockett bucks..Also seen them never get above 20"..

[Okiehunter]

I'd be happy to pay extra (even double). I think people are crazy for griping about the cost of a license when that money directly benefits our wildlife. Plus most people spend more money in gas going to their lease one time than their license cost...

Can you explain to me just how in the heck the money I pay for my lease directly benefits the wildlife? That money goes to the landowner’s bottom line.

You guys need to think about what you are asking the state boys to do. On our lease there is no way under the sun for them to trap, net or otherwise get their hands on significant part of the deer population, much less the spike population.

Brother doesn’t be so quick to offer up more of my money to the state. I already pay 10 times the amount you do for a license. I for one could not stand much more. IF you are so fired up about spending more head south and hunt in the big buck (aka $$$$) country where you don’t worry about spikes.

If you don’t want to shot spikes don’t. If you don’t want to shoot a doe, don’t. You might be able to manage your little piece of heaven but everyone has neighbors and only state laws will force game management across the fence.

[Okiehunter]

Every time I read about the antler restriction rule I can’t help but think back to when Texas changed the size and limit on bass. As I recall it was in the mid or late 70’s.The rule was 12” minimum and the limit was I think 15 fish. When the state went to 14” and a 5 fish limit you would have thought the world was coming to an end.

Then, when the state introduced the slot on lakes like Fork the word on the street was it would do nothing but ruin fishing forever. Low and behold, following all the rule changes, public outcry and bi---ing and moaning the fish grow bigger and bigger, records started falling and fishermen came to these lakes in droves.

Do you guys ever think, just for a moment, that the guys charged with the responsibility to improve the deer population have the brain power and resources to actually know what they are doing?

Can anyone logically outline, backed up by real data not emotion, an argument that antler restrictions are not reaching the goal of growing more and bigger bucks? If they can I would love to see the proof. Until you dedicate your life’s work to wildlife biology, spend thousands of hours studying and researching deer and deer management at least give the boys who are doing their best a little bet of credit.

[buzzbait]

here is what I think. People are always going to complain about a rule/law. If they made the law 12 inches, someone would complain they had a 11 inch inferior/trophy. If they made a 10 inch rule, someone would complain they had a 9 inch inferior trophy.... etc........ See where I am going here. No there is not an exact science to it, but geeze something needed to happen....
check out Colorado County Wildlife Management Website. We were one of first counties in AR......Nuff Said!

https://www.ccwma.org

[VorTexan]

I read this a few years ago about a study I think in Mississippi (wild deer) vs. the old Texas pen study. I'm not going to guess the results as I have forgotten much but maybe someone can dig this study up. I have read and followed Dr. K and others since I was in College (7 years of reading deer mags and article..no wonder it took me so long LOL) funny thing is the thoughts on this changed every year. I look at it like this,

Look at the deer, if it's big (big body) and at least 2.5 and is a long horned spike for goodness sake shoot that one. If it's less than 2 (born late) and short spikes small body you get the picture let it go. There are some HUGE spikes out there that need to be culled. I am seeing much less of them now for some reason. I call them goat horned spikes -don't ask me why but big deer no branch he's going down. I quit reading the stuff after the last free range results I read. I would like to read those test again. I always look at it like this to simplify. If you get pictures of young deer the same size, one is a 4,6,8 and a spike same body size, that tells me the spike will more than likely always apply more nutrients to his body vs. his horns.

[coop]

When they started the 13" rule in our county I had high hopes that it would improve our heard. Our place is only 355 acres with myself and one other hunter, bow only. After 5 or 6 years, I can't remember for sure, our heard has not improved at all. In the last 4 years we have only seen 2 legal bucks (cameras included) and only 1 was killed. Not counting spikes.
I do not believe the problem is with the law as much as it is with the hunters around us.
Our area has been on a steady decline for the past 8 years. Our local game warden seems to think it is due to some of our neighbors day hunting.
So much for managing a small place.
I also believe any deer a person kills and is happy with is a trophy and way too much emphasis is placed on antler size. But that's just my opinion.

[jcso139]

I would not want people scaring all the deer on my lease that close to deer season. we supplement feed enough that it will make up the difference. also use trail cams to age deer. this works so for. this already we have a taken a 3.5 yoa 8 inch spike. We have one for sure shooter spike on the lease left to take. about same age as the other one.