Will a buck without brow tines ever have brow tines?

[BadtotheBow]

Not at all. Genetic principals and breeding are basically the same. The difference is that we have control over domestic animals and outcross when depression presents. Wild game does not have that benefit. If a property is at capacity, new deer will not take up residence in it. High fences are not needed to keep out a steady supply of new genetics. The basic principals of survival take care of that. Deer in high density areas move to lower density areas and better provisions, not the other way around. High fence properties are actually at the advantage in this case because they do have some control. They get to double up on their good genetics through naturally occurring line breeding and inbreeding and when depression does present, they just TTT some new genetics in to increase genetic diversity and produce the outcross vigor.

Fun fact: Did you know that Eisenstein was a product of inbreeding? He was also in love with his cousin but did not marry her because the familial coefficient of their potential progeny would have been too high, making the potential for depression likely.

Steve

I guess its all about personal preference to cull them or not then! thanks for answering my questions

[BadtotheBow]

IMHO they will definitely start showing "undesirable" traits at 3.5. Short brows...Short G2's...tight beam curl basket racks, etc.

If you have better genes in the herd but you are OK with the majority of your deer looking like that in 5 years then leave them.

I have been trying to manage our place now for the last 5 years or so and that has been my main focus is culling deer before giving them the chance to breed but also waiting long enough to see if they are really a cull or not.

[Bones]

Who was Eisenstein?

Apparently not me....

[BURTONboy]

Seems like i set off a bombshell . I agree with a lot that I have read and have come to the conclusion that for the most part, a 3.5 yr old buck without brows probably won't have brows. Where I hunt, in Camp Wood, Texas, we have the short brow tine trait. It hasn't always been this way, in fact, this year is the first year I really noticed it. I have seen few bucks without brow tines, but there is one every now and again. Here are a few pics of the bucks we took this year and the older smaller 8 point is the only one that really has good brow tines, IMHO. All good deer none the less, but that 9 point would have looked a lot better with long brow tines to match the rest of his longer tines. That wide 8 would have filled out better, and my 10 would have looked better with longer g4's and longer brow tines, but he to was an older deer. I can't get the older 8 to show up, but I think you get the idea.

[wildaggie]

Wasn't it very dry in your area this year? Antlers are a product of genetics, nutrition and age. If this is the only year to notice it, and the groceries weren't there, then this is likely a temporary expression of lack of nutrition, not necessarly genetics. That being said, if there were deer on your place that were carrying long brow tines this year, and you want that characteristic all the time, not just good nutrition years, then those are the deer to leave. Basically, leave the big-antlered deer in a bad year, and you leave the best genetics out there to do the breeding. It's hard to tell the genetics on a mediocre deer in a good year, because he'll be in a good year, not so good in a bad year.

And no, a deer without brow tines at 2.5/3.5 usually won't grow them later, or they'll at best be short.

[Kdog]

I have been hunting on my lease for 4 years. 1st year I saw alot of slick 6's (no brows). After 3 years of feeding protein and pretty good rains 2 of those years, I did even get one picture of a slick 6 this year.

[Todd-ty729]

I was on a ranch that had a young foreman running the place. He was an Animal Science grad from A&M and had the knowledge to be able to AI cattle.

He grew up in the San Saba area and was particularly fond of Larry Weishum and his teachings regarding deer management. I remember him saying that Larry would be a frequent guest speaker during his time in the AG program. This was probably around the mid 90's.

Anyway, this youngster was of the belief that a buck with no browtines would never have brow tines. He also said that the same buck's first male off-spring would not have browtines either. After that then the rest of his male offspring would/could have normal browtines.

He also believed that this was a trait that was only carried by the buck and not the doe.

I am not sure buy into all of his ideas and I have no clue as to any documentation or whatever to back up his claims.



That being said, we "cull" any buck that is 2 1/2 years old or more that shows antler characteristics that we deem "undesireable". That doesn't make them a bad deer but just a characteristic we do not like.

We remove no-browtine deer. Been on the same 13,500 acre ranch for 9 seasons. We had several bucks with no brow tines that varied in age and we hammered them hard.

Looking back now it is very seldom that we see bucks with no browtines so I can only conclude that by removing them we are accomplishing a portion of our management goal.

I also personally believe that just because a buck does not show any sign of browtines at a young age means that he will never have browtines. I do believe that if they grow in later years that they will be relatively short. This is just my observation and nothing more.

I also believe that the earth sometimes mysteriously opens up and takes away some of the young bucks we let walk year after year. No one has been able to make me understand this either.

If your goal is "inches" then you probably want to remove deer that do not grow brows or the bucks with short brows among other things. The list of antler qualities that we as trophy hunters desire is as long as Gene Simmons tongue and varies from one camp fire to the next.

[Speedgoat]

I will tell you what a Biologist told me. If a deer does not have at least the beginning of a good rack at 1.5, then he will not be good at an older age. No brow tines at 1.5 -2.5 means weak at 3.5 and older. You have to have a good base to make it and supplements only enhance genetics, they don't create them.

[BURTONboy]

Wasn't it very dry in your area this year? Antlers are a product of genetics, nutrition and age. If this is the only year to notice it, and the groceries weren't there, then this is likely a temporary expression of lack of nutrition, not necessarly genetics. That being said, if there were deer on your place that were carrying long brow tines this year, and you want that characteristic all the time, not just good nutrition years, then those are the deer to leave. Basically, leave the big-antlered deer in a bad year, and you leave the best genetics out there to do the breeding. It's hard to tell the genetics on a mediocre deer in a good year, because he'll be in a good year, not so good in a bad year.

And no, a deer without brow tines at 2.5/3.5 usually won't grow them later, or they'll at best be short.

I'm pretty sure it was dry everywhere, including where I hunt. I understand what your saying here, but we saw more good deer and bigger deer then ever before. I've never seen so many good deer in one season. So i'm not real sure you can blame short brow tines on the rain. I would think that if the brow's were lacking, everything would be lacking, and that just wasn't the case.

[Todd-ty729]

I will tell you what a Biologist told me. If a deer does not have at least the beginning of a good rack at 1.5, then he will not be good at an older age. No brow tines at 1.5 -2.5 means weak at 3.5 and older. You have to have a good base to make it and supplements only enhance genetics, they don't create them.

That is generally my phylosiphy, pilosphamy, flosspamy......as well. We will give them the benefit of the doubt for a couple of years but a crummy rack at 2 1/2 is already way behind.

If a deer has at least one good feature we will usually let it slide. It may be they have long G-2s or above average mass or multiple points or whatever.

Generally if it doesn't have a normal 8 pt. frame or better by it's second set of antlers then it gets a dirt nap. We gotta keep the deer numbers in check and we chose accordingly.

[Tx-Burt]

Here's a couple pics I found, have some more just not on this sys.
This is the gene we're trying to get rid of
Cull 7 no Brow tine
Big Cull 8, little brow

[TreeNap]

Brows or not? Would you kill him?

And no, that ain't ganja in the picture. The locals call it wild Mary J.

[cosmiccowboy]

And no, that ain't ganja in the picture. The locals call it wild Mary J.

LOL

I'll bet they do.

[BadtotheBow]

I would kill him and consider it good management. I don't want that gene in my pasture. Had it bad once and finally got it under control

[Mailman]

We address it on our place in a little different fashion. I am by no means a biologist, and I will never claim to be.

Roy Hindes once told me on a track, which by the way, those are no fun for the shooter, but they are really a blast to experience. His dogs are out of this world. Anyways I have been with him on 4 or 5 tracks and I asked him last time I was with him, about culling. As you all know, his ranch produces monsters, and they really know what they are doing.

His quote to me was, "If you let him walk, you better like him... You'll see him again!!!" Meaning, that deer is going to breed and he will pass those traits on, that is a fact. You as the manager of your land have to decide what lives and what doesn't. What traits don't you like, what traits do you like? What are you going to do to promote those traits that you like?

Another point to consider is you can't kill all your 3.5 year old deer. On our place the 8 point gene is the dominant gene. At 3.5 most of our deer are 8 point frames, and there are some with 9 and 10 point frames. Those with 9 and 10 get a pass, we will not shoot them. For example if you have (12) 3.5 year old 8 points. Some are naturally going to be inferior, and those are the ones that we concentrate on killing. We have a list of traits that we hate at our place.

1.) Short Brows, Unless those bucks have exceptional tine length they will get whacked. If everything else is average and they have short brows, they die.

2.) Short G3's / Crab Claw's, those deer that look like they have Crab Pincher's at the end of their racks get smacked. We always have 2 or 3 deer every year that will have decent brows, 8 inch or so G2's, and then they will throw a 3 inch G3 in the mix, for whatever reason they always look the same, so we kill them.

3.) Basket Racks - Unless they have super potential, and I mean really long tines, they will get whacked. I am talking about deer with wrap around beams, and about a 12 to 14 inch spread. They look ugly, and I know beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but these deer never get better on our place. We let one walk, and gave him 2 more years to develop, and he looked exactly the same 2 years later. Just a little bigger version of the ugly basket racked deer from 2 years before.

Just some thoughts on how we try do it, and for the most part we are pretty successful. One thing that has really helped our program is technology. Everyone has a video camera or a good quality digital camera, so if they aren't certain they can bring in video or pictures for approval. It never hurts to ask someone elses opinion, and that helps to eliminate mistakes.