Sticker Siting/GW Stop all in one!

[Dale Moser]

I would not have engaged said DPS officer in a "getting to know you" manner. I would have explained that the plate must have gotten knocked off and taken the ticket for the trailer not having a plate and mosey'd on down the road.

Whoever here suggests that Michael and Legdog are shady, for "changing the way they deal with the law dog" in the future,.......are playing some monday morning quarterback somethin' awful. It is not the responsibility of the hunter to provide answers to questions that are not asked by a game warden or DPS officer for that matter and said hunter should in no way be looked down upon past a crooked little nose.

Perfect example: Game warden stops you on the lake checks fire extinguisher, license, registration, and whether you been drinkin' like Jason Boland 5 years ago....then says all good have a nice day and be safe. It IS NOT YOUR RESPONSIBILITY to say hey Bossman you want to count our life jackets.
Laws were broken, tickets written, fines will be paid, lessons learned, but the way they choose to handle the next time they encounter a GW is really nunya bidness in my opinion as long as they are respectful and answer the questions asked

You are exactly right, but it IS your responsibility to follow the law, and HAVE enough life jackets!

BTW, I don't look down at Stephen and Michael for ANYTHING....just a series of un-fortunate events.

[Jack Cactus]

I would like to write about an experience that I had with a couple of GW's. A friend and myself were dove hunting in a place that we have dove hunted on numerous occassions. We got into this place one morning before light and set up to hunt. The dove started to fly in a rapid pace as soon as it was legal shooting light. We were both doing well when I was retrieving a downed dove and noticed that there was milo scattered on the ground. There were two other hunters in the field. I told my buddy that we needed to leave now because we could get sited for hunting over bait. As we were leaveing I walked by one of the other hunters and told him the same thing. He did not leave when we did. I called the GW and he agreed to meet me at my house after he had gone out to the field to look around. When he arrived he had another GW with him. Long story short after I went out of my way to do the right thing he writes me and my buddy for hunting over bait. I do not know if he talked to the other guys that were there or not but I was out $275.

[Fishndude]

Jeff lets twist the scenario a little bit. Say at one of your kid’s fishing derbies that you host each year (thanks for what you do for the kids by the way) a volunteer helps a youngster reel in a big fish. The GW comes by, visits, and maybe even takes a picture with the smiling youngster. Next the GW asks to see the volunteers fishing license. Said volunteer pulls it out and it is expired. GW smiles and writes him a ticket. Good place for a warning? Obviously the volunteer is a good person, helping the kids out and all. Obviously there was no intent to break the law. An honest mistake. Shouldn’t we as a collective group trust the LEO to use discretion in the case?

Great scenario and for the record my events are exempt from it occuring(but only "during the event"). However, let's say they're not exempt and I'll take it a step further with an actual occurence. I had occasion to catch a few fish at one of my events. Since they were trout, I gave them to a parent of a participant. After the event, another parent called the GW and the gentleman who I gave the fish was cited for being over his limit. Ooops!! I just contributed to the problem. Was it partially my fault? Yes!!! Was it partially the gentleman's fault??? Yes!!! Did I trust/expect the GW to use discretion? No!! He was called there to do a job and he did it.

[Dru]

Was it partially my fault? Yes!!! Was it partially the gentleman's fault??? Yes!!! Did I trust/expect the GW to use discretion? No!! He was called there to do a job and he did it.

I think issuing warnings is also part of their job. Someone at some point decided that situations will arise in which a warning will suffice. It is part of their job, they have the ability to issue warnings. Why even have that ability?

For those that believe Stephen got what he deserved, do you also believe no warnings should ever be issued?

[TexasCanesFan]

I have to say that I am quite disappointed in some of the responses that I have been reading, especially from some of the older more respected senior members on here. To say that you would interact differently just doesn't sit well with me or set a good example for the membership. I think it's noble that you admit no hard feelings and admit that you did break laws, but the impression that you are giving about LEO/GW is not a good one.

I think this is what has stuck with me through most of this thread. You are the leadership of this forum and IMO, its not good to have someone in a leadership position making this kind of negative and questioning statement.

Mike D and kramer are expressing the same thought I have been thinking this whole time.

This is a very rule heavy forum and people are not even allowed to publically question the enforcement of those rules. The leadership of this forum violates actual laws and are lawfully cited for those violations and all of the sudden the GW's are the bad guys.

Then we get a multi-page thread of publically questioning how the GW's did their job which is being lead by the owner of the forum.

This is not a "please learn from our mistake" thread at all.

It is not sitting very well with me either.

Why would I NOT interact differently? In the same situation, why would I engage the DPS trooper in idle conversation, or why would Steven feel compelled to show the officer the deer he had killed, when the officer never requested to see it? Different certainly doesn't mean that I would be discourteous or treat the officer disrespectfully, but it probably does mean that I wouldn't volunteer any information that wasn't specifically requested, or could possibly mean in a future situation where I might have otherwise been proactive in searching out a GW (ie, if I see a fellow lease member violating a game law), I might not be so quickly inclined to report it for fear that I might have overlooked an obscure regulation that I might not be aware of.

Since when is it not permissible to voice disagreement with a public official or law enforcement officer, especially when it's done with the utmost respect?

How is the log on the back of a hunting license an obscure regulation?!?!?! It is right next to where you sign you license and has been a huge issue with GW's for several years.

~sigh~

It has everything to do with trust.

The Gamewarden is paid to find things wrong and enforce the law. For example, if you take a deer and your license is in camp, you can not trust the gamewarden to understand that you intend to promptly tag your animal after loading it in your truck and driving it to the cleaning station. You can not trust the game warden to understand you forgot to put an ink pen in your back pack or that you have a zip tie in camp and will attach the tag there.

The stories are scattered all through this thread. You would be foolish to trust the gamewarden to ever give a warning or allow any kind of reasonable leniency. Have the pen on you ready to fill out the tag where the game crashes or you should expect to be fined.

So should the GW's ever actually enforce the laws they are specifically employed to enforce?!?!?! They should just give warnings and "reasonable leniency" to everyone that violates game laws?!?!?!

Out of pure curiosity, have you filled out the log on the back of your license for deer you've shot in the last 5 years?

Looks like I am not the only one who thought that.

[Legdog]

Something else that the rest of us (not Michael and Stephen) may not be able to grasp, is the over-all tone of the scene.

It seems as though things were all "happy go-lucky", taking pics, BSing with the trooper, get a quick warning and call Ben to look for the license plate......etc. Then the game wardens show up and it's more good times and stories, "Be sure to tell all your bowhunter friends to read the regs", and what have ya......then all of a sudden, BOOM...."Sign here please, press hard, you're going through 4 copies......" and Leggy's wallet is several hundred lighter!

I can also see where that would change my tune A LITTLE....had I been there.

you nailed it Dale

even when the officer was writing the ticket I thought my "roadside yuck it up buddy" was simply filling out a warning to make sure I did not forget next time. In my mind I knew he expected me to get the word out to bowhunter nation as all parties involved knew we were members of this site. I think Michael even told them it was HIS site... it was that obvious how we rolled. The second officer even said "do you think this will paint us in a bad light?" These were good officers. They knew opinions would be voiced over this event.

When I told the officer writing my ticket, "Wow is that expensive!?" and he replied "No idea, but its not in my budget" my light came on.

He handed me the ticket and suddenly the party was over. All the officers spun on their collective heels. Micheal had their email address' and I had what I hope is not too big of a wallet dent. While some will read this and think I'm whining, what I'm really saying is just that I was surprised there was not a little more discretion involved. Not the first time I have been guilty of a little naivety. It was extremely obvious there were not multiple deer in my ice chest and I even offered to show him the 2 backstraps... but law is law... I can respect that. Still, respecting the law does not mean I forfit the right to be surprised.

I'm sorry if this offends some of you on some level, but next time I'm standing in front of a gamewarden its strictly business. I will continue to be as ethical and law abiding as I can... but you never know, I might forget my flashlight or maybe even my pen. It happens.

Jack Cactus... WOW

[Swat791]

It seems like it is ****ed if we (LE) do and ****ed if we (LE) don't...

I use to get asked all the time, "Would you write a ticket for (whatever violation)?"
Sometimes would say "yes" and sometimes "no".
I would follow up with but that is just me and another officer might issue the ticket since it is a valid law.

I didn't write many registration violation tickets and a lot of times I would write warnings to gain compliance on non-moving violations. That was always my goal gain compliance...Red light running got a ticket every time!
Sometimes pain compliance (hitting the pocket book) is necessary too.

Some laws we may not all agree on, even myself, but never the less they are valid laws and enforceable.

Many folks have stated the GW had poor lack of judgment. How can an officer have lack of judgment for writing a citation for a valid law?
Just because we don't agree to the law doesn't mean is not valid or that an officer is using poor lack of judgment for writing a ticket for the violation.

Did the DPS Trooper used lack of judgment for not issuing a citation, since Fail to Display Registration is a valid law.

It is nice to see a lot of agencies allow for officer's discretion, however there are some that don't.

The law doesn't give allowances for misunderstandings or if I am a good citizen. I'm sure there are a lot of good citizens in this great state, but we don't have a data base for us "Good Citizens". Maybe we should create one, huh?

My advise is (for anyone one) would be to go in and ask the judge for deferred adjudication. If anyone feels they are right, by all means take the citation to a trial (before the court or jury trial) and plea your case.

In this case the best thing to do is to ask for deferred adjudication. I'm sure the picture of the picture with the GW and the bag of meat is right now...marked as State's Evidence: Exhibit #1 and I wouldn't be surprised if this whole thread would be marked as State's Evidence: Exhibit #2

It is pretty clear to me that no one in this situation was intending to break any laws, unfortunately a mistake was made and someone is being held accountable.

Reminder get a regulation book and read over it.
The Parks and Wildlife code can be found at Texas Statutes
Some P&W rules/laws fall under the Texas Administration Code: Title 31 Part 2

Now, I am going to go take my TBH sticker off my truck to protect myself from being jack up any of the GW reading this thread

[Fishndude]

I think issuing warnings is also part of their job. Someone at some point decided that situations will arise in which a warning will suffice. It is part of their job, they have the ability to issue warnings. Why even have that ability?

Let's consider opportunity for a minute. A DPS officer has occasion to issue a citation or a warning about once every 15 minutes (roughly). A GW has occasion to make such a decision perhaps on average about once and maybe twice a day(roughly). Expecting/trusting a GW will issue a warning should probably not be a consideration.

[HogHunter09]

[

[Dru]

This is a very rule heavy forum and people are not even allowed to publically question the enforcement of those rules. The leadership of this forum violates actual laws and are lawfully cited for those violations and all of the sudden the GW's are the bad guys.

Michael addressed this earlier. They do not rule this site with an iron hand. Warnings are given, pm's sent, second chances handed out frequently.... and no where have they sad the GW's were bad guys.

So should the GW's ever actually enforce the laws they are specifically employed to enforce?!?!?! They should just give warnings and "reasonable leniency" to everyone that violates game laws?!?!?!

Really?!?!?!

[Dale Moser]

ANOTHER thing....... I think for the most part, on opening weekend of any major season......there will be **** few warnings issued. Especialy by the GWs workin major highways.

I believe you are right Swat791.

[Legdog]

So should the GW's ever actually enforce the laws they are specifically employed to enforce?!?!?! They should just give warnings and "reasonable leniency" to everyone that violates game laws?!?!?!!

Hopefully this does not sound condescending, but Its like some people are not even reading the same thread!

from the very beginning of this epic discussion, I tried to make it clear that the game wardens are in no way begrudged for doing their job.

Should they just give warnings and use reasonable discretion to everyone? Of course not!!!

Are Michael Middleton and Steven Leggett above the law!?!? NO!

I hope this finally makes those points clear.

[Legdog]

[QUOTE=HogHunter09;1890883]

At this point I'm thinking this is just a fun way to chat with the local officers on the ride home... after all, I have a brand new hunting license and properly tagged game... I had no clue what was going to happen next...

CORRECTION! "Improperly tagged deer" Have you forgotten what you learned. There are two peices to this puzzle, the tag and the harvest log.

when I wrote that, I had no idea tagging a deer in the ear was improper. If you read, that is explained.

[BrianL]

I think the trust issue is more trust in yourself to remember to do everything right and trust you have not forgot something. We all forget stuff sometimes, so the less you say in those situations, the better off you will be. Be polite and courtious, but stick with only the facts at hand.

[netxbuck]

I personally am not a big fan of the tickets. I think the way laws were intended years ago was to keep people from taking advantage of a situation. The wording has changed over the years to protect certain situations such as someone shooting a doe for camp meat and there being three backstraps in that bag. I would think it should be the game wardens discretion to see if someone is truly trying to bend the law and get away with something to write the citation. I don't think they should look for ways to fine good people. The law is written to protect them in court for people that have really done wrong. They do have a job and I understand it is not always an easy one, but anyone that knows anything about hunting could see that they were just trying to have something to do in deer camp and processed the deer. As for the cite for not writing on the back more power to the LEO but I personally think the ticket for the processed deer was overkill.